Cartas Rogatoras Vol IV
Pages 27 - 72Thanks to Ines for translation
Leicestershire Police Squad Witness Statement:
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC
Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Ivor MESSIAH
Age if less
This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best of my knowledge
and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully
states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 15 of May 2008
I am police detective 1485 with the Leicestershire police and work in the Braunstone police squad in the criminal
investigation unit. On Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I was in the service of the squad between 08h55 and 10h25 of this
same day. An interview relevant to witness Carole Tranmer occurred in the interview room. The interview was recorded on DVD
and appended as evidence (IM/28') together with a copy of the DVD (IM/28B). Appended also is the transcription of this
same interview as evidence (IM/28).
During the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
' Outline of Ocean Club apartment block
CT/11 ' Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 ' A
photograph taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected
three pieces of evidence from Carole Tranmer. This statement was made by me and is truthful in accordance with my belief and
Leicestershire Police Squad
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980,
ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Criminal 2005, Decision 27.1Witness statement of: Carole TRANMER
Age is less than 18:
This statement, consisting of one page, signed by me, is true to the best
of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if
I have wilfully states in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 22 of April of 2008
I am the above referenced person and live at the address
previously given to the police by my husband.
On Tuesday the 22nd of April of 2008, I attended the police squadron
in Enderby, Leicestershire. I spoke with DC 1485 Messiah.
Between 9h43 and 11h00 he conducted a recorded video
interview, during which I drew an outline of the apartment block (evidence CT10) which I visited on Tuesday, the 3rd of May
During this interview I presented a map of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and signalled where I visited,
subject to what I have already described. This evidence is referenced as CT11.
During this interview, I also showed
DC Messiah a photograph taken by my husband on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007. The photograph shows me on the terrace of
my aunt's apartment in the Ocean Club. I am turned towards the crosswalk, but did not, on this occasion, see the subject.
This photograph is referenced as evidence CT12. At 11h10 on Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I handed this evidence to DC
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my belief and understanding.
Leicestershire Police Squad
Transcribed/Recorded Witness Statement
Location of interview: Enderby Police Squadron
Date of Interview: 22 of April of 2008
Stop time: 11h10
Agent that conducted the interview: DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other people present:
Page Numbers: 54
Signature of Interviewer:
Agent that produced the documents: Messiah DC1485
of interview: 87 minutes
Recording Ref': IM28A
DC1485'The recording is now live.
DC1485'This interview is being video recorded, it is Tuesday, the 22nd of April, 2008, and the hour on my watch
is 9 hours and 40 minutes. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am a detective with the Leicestershire police in the Criminal Investigation
unit and would like to ask her to present herself and tell me her name, the date of her birth and her address, please'
CT'Humm...my name is Carol TRANMER and my date of birth is the first day of 1948 and I live at, humm... (detail
DC1485'Okay, and your occupation, I believe, you are retired'
CT'I am now retired,
DC1485'What was your occupation before retirement'
Yes, before retirement I worked temporarily for, more or less a year, and before that, I ran an antique business.
CT'I owned it for, humm... four years, and before this I worked as a secretary at Windsor
CT'For this reason, humm... I worked as an administrative secretary for
most of my life.
DC1485'How nice. Did you like what you did'
CT'Yes, very much so, yes.
DC1485'Do you have children'
CT'No, I do not have children.
have no children, therefore, do you live alone with your husband'
CT'Yes, we (inaudible).
long have you been married'
CT'We have been married for 20 years and... humm, have lived together for 23
years in (address removed).
DC1485'In the same location'
CT'In the same house.
DC1485'Same house, yes.
DC1485'You told me that you worked at Windsor Castle'
DC1485'Did you know the Queen'
CT'Yes. I knew her.
CT'All, all, yes. The entire family, the whole royal family, yes.
DC1485'How did that happen'
CT'I worked in the Royal Collection and hummm... I was a personal
assistant in the royal library and bookstore. I frequently encountered the royal family in private visits. There was also
the Easter Court where the entire Buckingham Palace would usually come. Everyone had a very restricted calendar regarding
their duties , thus if anything happened to the royal family, if they brought friends of visitors to Windsor, I had the opportunity
to meet them and to show them around.
Dc1485'And did you speak to the Queen or Philip'
DC1485'And Diana, did you know Diana'
CT'No, I never knew Diana. She was not there
at the time.
DC1485'That must have been lamentable for you.
not having the opportunity to meet her' Not having the opportunity to meet her is a shame given what happened to her also.
CT'Yes, a tragedy, but it was a good experience working there.
It is good that you liked it.
CT'Yes, I liked it.
DC1485'The reason for our discussion today,
Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of
May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have
asked us, the Leicestershire police--because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire--to be the their link in England
to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'
CT'Mmm, mmm yes.
reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know
the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority'everyone's
testimony has proceeded in the same way.
DC1485'And as I have already mentioned,
the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that
are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely
collaborating with them.
DC1485'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate
questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information
that may surface.
DCc1485'Are you okay'
I am about to ask you Caroline, is to make an introduction, that you tell me a bit about yourself and how you managed or organised
your stay in Portugal during the time of the disappearance.
CT'Mmm, good. My aunt, Pamela Fenn, lives in a
Luz apartment and we visit her frequently. Our last visit was a result of a birthday gift, if you can call it that. But our
trip was in reality to look for a home, as we would like to live there one day. For this reason, we stayed in the eastern
Algarve, not in my aunt's house but in a small complex whose name I do not remember.
DC1485'Could it have
been Pinhal do Sol'
CT'Yes, that is it.
CT'So, we stayed there.
We booked a reservation for only a week, and hummm'on Sunday, we decide to visit my aunt and to take her to lunch. It
was at this point that the photographs of our holidays were taken.
we spent the rest of our time in the eastern Algarve to look at properties and on Thursday'my birthday was on Tuesday'we
decided to take my aunt to lunch before our return the next Saturday. The incident happened on Thursday.
You should continue and explain how everything happened.
CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything,
everything that I can.
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look
below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving,
opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and
the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and
exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible).
I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after
having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such.
We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing
child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror.
CT'After arriving home, Sunday
morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child.
I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded
'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst
and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen
something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that
type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police',
and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I
telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I
telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would
give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so
I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get
in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.
was when I called them, that is when you, sir, called me.
CT'After that, you booked
a meeting time so that someone could come and speak with me
CT'And I was working
temporarily (inaudible) for the Royal Borough of Maidenhead.
DC1485'Did they visit you at work'
CT'Yes, they came to the office as they asked me what would be easier and I told them that it would be easier if they
could come to me so that I would not miss too much work and'
CT'Then, I arranged
a room and they came to visit.
DC1485'Were they at
DC1485'The fact that they came to visit you.
no, truthfully, I am only trying to help.
CT'An after having spoken to them, I
received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.
CT'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course'
and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'
DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw
the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.
DC1485'I would like to analyse a few parts of your statement with you, if you allow me,
and to stimulate your memory to see if you remember anything else in relation to your stay.
DC1485'I would like to clarify in your statement'-your statement 'On the 28th of May, 2008'my husband
and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve' and in addition,
to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called'"
Dc1485'Quarteira, is that so'
CT'I believe so.
CT'That is it, Quarteira, Quarteira.
DC1485'Quarteira, in a zone called (inaudible).
CT'(inaudible) mmm, mmm.
a vehicle to travel. My aunt lives in apartment 20, Waterside Gardens, Praia da Luz, Bloco 5G in the Ocean Club. We went to
visit her on Sunday, the 29th of May'. Is this wrong'
CT'No, it is not correct. We arrived on Saturday,
DC1485'Well then, it was after, after the disappearance of Madeleine. Was it not'
no because this, humm... was in April, it was the 1st of May, Tuesday.
more or less in the end of April.
CT'Therefore, it was... my birthday was on the
1st, Tuesday, and Thursday was the 1st of May.
CT'Thus, we arrived the Saturday
DC1485'Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal
after the disappearance of Madeleine'
DC1485'So that date is incorrect'
CT'Yes. It was in fact in April.
DC1485'April, this is it then'
CT'Yes, I should have
CT'Or no, I don't know.
DC1485'It says here, Saturday,
the 28th of May.
CT'It was the 28th of April because it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we took my aunt to lunch.
CT'Yes and after we went to visit her on Sunday. We visited her on the 29th of April.
here it says May, thus this statement is incorrect, right'
CT'Yes of course.
Let us clarify the statement collected on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to.
CT'Yes, it was
wrong, it was in April.
DC1485'In fact it should be Saturday, the 28th of April.
DC1485'This is correct, of course it was.
CT'I got confused when I read this.
I would also get confused.
DC1485'Good, then in relation to the date, everything is now correct'
DC1485'Yes, good. Relative to what you said happened on Thursday, your statement states
that Thursday, the 3rd, you went to visit your aunt. Therefore, you saw her on Sunday'
DC1485'And after that you went in search of properties'
the eastern Algarve, right'
CT'That is correct, yes.
DC1485'Thursday, the 3rd of May.
CT'May, mmm, mmm.
DC1485'You returned to your aunt in Praia. Now tell me from where you were coming
and tell me about that day.
CT'We, we were lodged in Quarteira.
this day, that morning, we left towards Luz but we took a bit of time, not much, much time. I do not remember now but it was
about an hour or so because we were in the eastern part and she lives in the barlavento region of the Algarve.
CT'We drove from there until Luz where my aunt lived, humm...I don't remember but I believe that we also
went shopping for her before our lunch and we had coffee when we arrived, humm... It should have been 11 or around noon when
we arrived, humm... after we went to pick her up. We met up, drank a coffee on the terrace and after went out to lunch in
Lagos, which is humm... in the old part of the city. There is a restaurant there whose specialty is fish and she really wanted
to go there. We returned around 3:30, sat on the terrace, had a coffee and stayed in the apartment until around 6:30 and left
around 6:30 that same day.
DC1485'This was on Sunday, right'
CT'No, this was on Thursday.
DC1485'This on Thursday, I understand.
CT'This all happened on Thursday.
CT'We left around 6:30. It was already dusk because at that time of the year, it gets dark quickly in Portugal.
We drove to our hotel and arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.
DC1485'It was a two hour trip then'
CT'It was about that, mmm, yes, it was a considerable distance.
DC1485'Speak to me about the apartment
where your aunt lives.
DC1485'It is obviously called, given its location,
the Ocean Club, right'
CT'It is in the Ocean Club, but she...
DC1485'How long has she been
there, in that apartment'
CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's,
she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and
go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain,
but I believe that there is one more apartment
DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.
is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs.
There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'
CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part,
it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is
turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'
DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.
CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point,
after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.
when you enter, give me a description of the apartment.
CT'I will describe what one sees when entering. Well,
when one enters there is a small entrance hall where you find her room and the living area. After, there is one more room
on the opposite side of the small veranda. It is not really a veranda but a passage where one can walk; there is a window
and an entrance door. This window is normally covered by a closed blind because it is the guest room; after that is a front
door in such a position'the window is there and the door and when one enters there is an access door to the to the guest
room and after, her room, which is at the edge of the building.
through there and there is a bathroom and through the entrance hall there is a guest room, a kitchen and an eating area. After
the living area, there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open.
you are on the terrace, to which direction are you turned'
CT'We are turned to a beautiful view of the
ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts,
and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there
are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.
DC1485'Who else lives there'
CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only
resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or
else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.
who else lives with her'
CT' She is completely alone.
No one else.
DC1485'So, in addition to your visit...'
CT' When we visit or stay in the
apartment with her, we do not take advantage of her because she is an older woman; she is eighty-something and as you know,
it is not big enough for us to stay there with her.
CT' We always stay somewhere
else, local. It is easier for her.
CT' And she does not have to worry about us
and with the family. She has many relatives who visit and normally they all stay...
CT' Unless it is just for a weekend or something similar.
because it is a lot of work and you know, she is arthtritic and these things; well, we prefer to stay somewhere else close
DC1485'And you can confirm that it is block 5G'
the name of, and the number of the apartment, 5G'
CT' No, the apartment is the twentieth.
CT' Apartment 20.
CT' Yes. Waterside Gardens,
DC1485'Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which
you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area'
CT' Well, below,
if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an
alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the
small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person
CT' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to
this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direction. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket,
or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direction he took (inaudible).
did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists
in that block of apartments'
CT' No, that is to say, there were more people in the pool zone. There were
more people around. I believe that it may be possible some were swimming, or even playing tennis. I cannot remember.
DC1485'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this
CT' On that day'
DC1485'Besides the individual, obviously.
CT' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration
was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do
not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could
have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.
you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'
CT' Well, it
appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people
were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.
CT' This detail
I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recollection
CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember
anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.
DC1485'When you were there, did you visit the supermarket'
CT' Humm... I am not certain if I went there that morning. I believe that is possible my husband passed by
there to pick up something for mu aunt. Me, no. It could have been Sunday' as you can see once again I am uncertain, I
am sorry I cannot remember.
DC1485'Try to position yourself during the second visit; given what happened on
Thursday, think about the hour you arrived. Think about whether someone welcomed you when you exited the car. Ok'
CT' Well, we arrived and went directly to the apartment.
My husband thinks that he noticed something. I think that we went to the supermarket on the street to the restaurant to see
if' to find blubs for the light fixture. This was before lunch. We looked around the supermarket for these special bulbs
for her. He could have gone alone or' I do not know. I did not go but it is possible he went, but no'I cannot remember.
We got together and had coffee and after went out for lunch. It had to around noon or something similar but it was probably
noon because we wanted to get to the restaurant around this time as it fills quickly and is well known and frequented by locals.
They only serve fish, fish, fish, but she adores it. For this reason we had to arrive early before the other people' around
CT'Well we must have left home around 11h00 to 11h30'mmm'
DC1485'And did you go on foot or by car'
CT'No, we had to drive there.
long did the journey take'
CT'Hum, it was not very long'it is in Lagos.
CT'Yes, from Luz to Lagos.
CT'It must have been about
DC1485'Okay. What was the restaurant called'
CT'Well, I do not remember the
name (inaud'le) or something like that. It is located in the old part of the city and one goes climbing until the top
(inaudible) yes. 'Esquitera' or something like that. I don't remember its proper name.
is a restaurant that serves fish'
CT'It is a restaurant that serves fish. It is very well known.
DC1485'On top of the hill'
CT'But it is not a tourist location; it is more for local people, more
or less, but it is the best, mmm, and it is not refined. The tables are made of wood with oilcloth and the fish, you know...
it is wonderful.
CT'But I cannot remember the name it is (inaudible) or something like
DC1485'Did you go to the Tapas Bar with your aunt'
no, no it was not there when I visited the last time, and it is something very recent; I believe that it was built about a
year ago and I was there before the Tapas Bar was constructed. I think it was a part of the reception or something similar.
We were not there before. It is very new.
DC1485'And the courts, did you visit the tennis courts'
CT'No, we do not play tennis and we did not swim in the pool.
DC1485'You did not use the pool'
DC1485'And the cr'he'did you go to the cr'he zone where the children were'
CT'No, I would not go to the cr'he as there was no reason to.
DC1485'Okay. How many times were
you there exactly'
CT'Hum... in Portugal or in Luz'
DC1485'Okay, in this resort'
CT'A few times, perhaps three; the first time was when my aunt moved in 2003 or 2004 and after that for a week.
My brother dies in 2003 and I remember that my uncle, Aunt Pamela's husband, died in June of 2003. As there were four
deaths in our family in the first four months of that year, the time of her move has stayed in my memory.
CT'And, she was very upset with all of it, and I was trying to help her cope along with dealing with my twin
brother's death. For this reason, I went to visit her for a week in February in 2004. It was my first time in that place
but we had already been in Luz before that when we went to Portugal as tourists. After that, we went a second time with my
husband and stayed in (inaudible) a small fishing village about 10 minutes from Luz. We have already been in Portugal many
times, but to visit Luz only three times.
DC1485'Okay. When you were there how was the temperature'
CT'It was good, sunny and hot. At times it was necessary to use a sweater but during the day it was marvellous.
Besides this, it was fresh and but very agreeable.
CT'I believe it rained one day; it was a bit windy, besides
this... it was wonderful weather ' not for sun bathing, even though there were people doing just this but it was not really
sun bathing weather.
DC1485'The (inaudible) people. What I will do next Carole, is to show you a part of a
map, okay, and I will ask you to outline some parts as well.
CT'Oh my God.
DC1485'You spoke, you spoke of, of, of another man you saw.
DC1485'You saw him leaving your aunt's terrace'
this is a map, it only covers the Luz area and he have here, if you can imagine, or even see exactly, the block of apartments.
DC1485'And here is the pool.
is the Tapas Bar and restaurant.
DC1485'Here is the tennis court.
DC1485'This is rua estreita.
CT'That is rua estreita.
DC1485'The passageway, right.
DC1485'Point me to the direction from which the individual came.
DC1485'And if you could show me in the way a camera captures an image. From, from
which apartment did he leave and to where did he go and where were you'
CT'In my aunt's, in the apartment
of my aunt in the corner to the top.
DC1485'Look to the bottom where you were looking,
if you want. You were looking to the bottom to the right and downwards, but this is not towards the lower apartment but is
actually slightly to the right and there is her veranda and finally, here on top, for I would say that here there is a small
gate'for this reason it was not this apartment in the end, that is what I wanted to say, you know'
was not the last one, yes, it was not exactly the last of the street.
DC1485'No, it was not the first gate.
CT'Of the interior.
CT'Where, if you have access.
there, there is a gate. It was not this gate, it was'when you leave the rua estreita, is it the very first gate you see.
DC1485'How many gates are there in total'
CT'I think that all of them have small gates.
DC1485'I am looking.
CT'Yes, as I recall or think, but I believe they are for all people.
I am not certain because I never saw the lower apartments having access to the others, no. For this reason, he was leaving
and after looked from side to side and continued walking on the street. I did not see in which direction he left, and it is
here that I think I saw him, but it is not possible for someone to leave from this gate.
CT'Or perhaps it is here from which the people or'perhaps I did not notice that there was another small gate.
DC1485'Oh, I am seeing it.
CT'I thought that there was only this gate.
here lies the confusion' to clarify things.
DC1485'It is not exactly the principal
gate because, as you noted, the ultimate apartment is where the McCann's were lodged.
CT'Well I did not
know. As you know I was on the top.
CT'And so it is clear, it was not this apartment
from which I was looking.
DC1485'Your aunt's apartment is exactly on top'
is directly on top.
DC1485'But it is two floors up'
CT'It is the last one, yes.
CT'Well then, I was looking to the first gate at the end of the alley.
CT'It was there that I saw the person leave.
DC1485'Okay, and your direction was this
way, following the passageway or to the other direction towards the shrubs'
CT'No, it was towards the gate.
DC1485'In the inside.
CT'Yes, because humm... it must be, there are shrubs and there is no gate
CT'As far as I know.
did not, I do not remember any gates. I believe that you have to go up and around, or to go through a different passage, or
something like this.
CT'I was never exactly in the area below but I do know that
it was this locale, humm... and I told my husband, I should tell him this. I had no idea that it was this was the apartment
they stayed. I only knew that which I saw and I was not wasting time. (inaudible)
DC1485'No, not in any way.
We only want to clarify everything.
CT'It is only that gate, that is the only one.
you mind making me an outline, please'
DC1485'If you would, if you make it, if
you could make the same one as this block here.
DC1485'And after, please mark an X
in the location where you saw this man leaving.
DC1485'And after where, where is the
gate in relation to the area from where he left.
CT'So, here is the block, okay, then the veranda of my aunt
and here on top.
CT'I am looking forward, here in the bottom is a small gate and
here is the rua estreita. There is the rua estreita and there are shrubs here and here, the small gates, they are all like
this and you climb some steps or can enter from the right, I believe, to enter the apartment. Thus I am looking more or less
upwards to downwards and he left from here' the first gate you reach. I did not know of this one here, I did not know
of this one.
CT'What I know is that this is the gate and this is what I thought.
DC1485'And can you tell me if he came out of an apartment or was simply exiting the complex'
CT'He was leaving, he was exiting.
DC1485'From an apartment'
CT'I did not see him
leave an apartment. I only saw him leave from the gate.
DC1485'Did the gate give direct access to the apartment'
CT'But he was, yes... mmm... no, not at the last apartment.
there is another apartment.
DC1485'Okay. I am seeing it.
CT' According to what I saw below,
it happened here, it could have been the last apartment.
DC1485'In your opinion, is it possible that he was
leaving his apartment, next to the last apartment'
DC1485'This, this is just
CT'Probably, oh it is right to say this because I would hate to state that he was; he may not have
been leaving because that past one was a different entrance.
entrance as a whole, the site closest to that row, the first door must have been next to the stairs.
and after you saw him leave, what happened'
CT'Well, he opened the gate from inside and made so he did
not make any noise, I only'it was what made me feel strange about it. He did this all very quietly, as if... you know,
when a gate creeks, but he ensured that it did not make noise, it could have been (inaudible)
CT'Yes, simply ensuring that it did not bang, and I know some people who enter without banging the doorafter they
enter, so this was very cautious, very careful, and for this reason, only this reason, I called you.
CT'It looked as though he was leaving, he closed it with both his hands, many times, closing it in silence
and cautiously with both hands and he looked lastly this way downwards, first to this side.
you are saying is that he looked first in your direction' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way
DC1485'Then he looked to the left.
CT'Oh I see.
he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking.
direction he took was to the street.
DC1485'He then went in this direction to the street, here, this street.
DC1485'Along here in this direction towards the supermarket.
But I do not know if he went in that direction or in this direction.
this way upwards and I then turned to my aunt and my husband.
DC1485'Then on your map, where do you believe
you saw him for the last time'
CT'At the exterior of the gate. He was closing it.
CT'And moving there in an upwards direction.
DC1485'Yes, then, the last location at which
you saw him, he would have been, would it be possible that the last time you saw him, he was passing the apartments in direction
of the street'
CT'No, I only saw him walking and I did not see him on the rua estreita for when I turned
to speak with my family, he was, he was probably always at the the top of the street, and.
am not here to put words in your mouth, or ideas in your head Carole, but it is possible that the last time you saw him he
was only passing through, as I have already indicated from the location of the McCann apartment. The last time you saw him
was passing by the McCann apartment then'
CT'Possibly, possibly, yes, I only know that I did not see him
turn to the right or the left. I did not look more after he passed the gate. I only know the direction in which he went. He
simply went in this direction, in that direction.
DC1485'Then Mrs. Tranmer, what happened first, did you lose
sight of him or did he disappear from your line if sight'
CT'No, I lost sight of him.
CT'I simply turned away.
DC1485'With your back to him'
DC1485'Then before you turned, he was still
CT'He was still visible.
DC1485'And you as well.
CT'When I turned,
it was obvious he was heading somewhere. I only know that he was headed in that direction.
CT'Then, I turned like this and he disappeared.
DC1485'This is great, it is great, it
is clear, okay. I am going to now try to ask a serues of questions that the Portuguese police would like to ask you, okay'
DC1485'Perhaps you have already answered before but what I want you to do, it to respond
with as much detail possible. Good, the first questions is ' do you attest to you statement given to the British police
in May of two thousand'eight of may of 2007. Do you attest to the statement that was made on this day to the police, the
same statement that I showed you on the 8th of May'
DC1485'This statement is yours'
DC1485'I will only, it is not necessary to read, but I am going to show you as it is necessary
to confirm your statement and that it is your statement.
CT'It appears to be, yes.
DC1485'Okay, thank you, and the only anomaly is the incorrect date.
date, the date is definitely wrong.
CT'We had arrived on the 28th or the 29th
CT'April, yes. It was in April and not in May.
I am going to help you refresh your memory anew and back to when this individual appeared.
DC1485'You have already stated that is was on Thursday because this was the day you visited your aunt.
DC1485'And at what time, I need to come to a definitive time with the hours.
DC1485'What do you think, it was not after the... and it was not before the'
it was not late.
DC1485'I assume that I was there, I was there between...we were there around 11, 10 or 11.
We took my aunt, we must have left around 11h30, a quarter to noon, and in order to go to the restaurant. Now it may have
been a bit early. We had a coffee before we left and really strange to me is the feeling that it could have happened then'I
feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.
DC1485'Then you mentioned previously, you said
before that you left around 6h30.
CT'Yes, we left.
DC1485'So, let us recap.
DC1485'How much time.
CT'We were there around, we returned from lunch around 3h00 or 3h30, and
we were there from 3h30 until 6h30. I know that it was 6h30.
DC1485'Then for a total of three hours, and there
were (inaudible) for three hours, yes'
CT'It was minimum of three hours, yes, because we were talking and
I had the sensation that we were longer than in the morning, and therefore, it was in these three hours when I saw him and
was looking from the veranda. I know that it will look horrible because it will only confuse everyone, but if I were to state
that it occurred during the morning. I am still not sure it was the morning or the afternoon. I only know that we were together
on the terrace.
CT'But the truth is that I cannot. I am trying my hardest to tell
you if it was morning or evening.
DC1485'Good, you left around 8h30, sorry, 6h30.