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Witness statements taken by Leicestershire police.
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Amanda Jane COXON: Witness statement, 02 May 2008 |
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Amanda Jane COXON: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 1 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 2 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 1
to 2
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ
Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Amanda
Jane COXON
Age if less than 18:
This statement (consisting of 2 pages and signed
by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be
liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 02 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am a friend of Gerry and Kate, I
used to work for them and also looked after the children.
I got to know Gerry and Kate in the year 2000, I worked
as a cleaner in their house in Queniborough, once a week. From the beginning they were always a very friendly couple.
During the time I worked there, Kate had her first daughter, Madeleine. Kate asked me whether I would look after Madeleine
twice a week when she returned to work part time. I agreed and she would leave Madeleine at my house and come and pick her
up later in the day.
Kate, Gerry and Madeleine moved to Amsterdam for a year and when they returned Kate was pregnant
with the twins. The twins were born in February 2006 and from that time I helped to look after them.
The relationship
I had with Gerry and Kate turned into friendship over the years and I consider myself to be a good friend of Kate's. After
their return from Portugal we became very close.
Gerry is a person with his feet very firmly placed on the ground,
a pleasant person who made us feel welcome from the very beginning. He is very conscientious with regard to his work but also
loves his family very much. He adores the children and would often have fun rolling about on the floor with Madeleine.
Kate is also a very friendly person, she is calm and serene and also adores the children. I never heard her raise
her voice with Madeleine or become irritated with her.
I have no knowledge of any conflict between Kate and Gerry,
or between them and Madeleine. I do not know of any problem or conflict between Madeleine and any other person or child.
I had a good relationship with Madeleine, I would describe her as full of fun, intelligent for her age and very active.
She is a very happy girl and the last time I saw her, she was already capable of maintaining a conversation. She clearly understood
the instructions given to her and was a good listener.
I would say that Madeleine is a very healthy girl and I
never noticed any changes in behaviour. I would not describe her as a hyperactive child. I do not know of any problem related
to sleeping, but I was rarely present when she went to bed.
Kate and Gerry never mentioned having any type of problem
with Madeleine.
She was well behaved, never caused her parents any problems and apparently always understood what she
was told. The parents never looked tired of taking care of Madeleine.
I have no knowledge about whether Madeleine
was subject to taking medicine and I never saw anyone giving her any medication. Gerry and Kate never referred to any medication
that Madeleine was taking.
As I said before, Madeleine was a very well behaved and lively child.
With
relation to the question about haemorrhages, I was never present at any episode when Madeleine bled, other than a normal nose
bleed when she inserted her finger into her nose and bled.
Nothing different from any other child having a nose
bleed.
In my opinion, Kate and Gerry and the children are a happy family who enjoy having fun together. There are
no words to describe what happened last year and they do not deserve to have been treated in the way they have been, by the
community and by the press. They are two decent and hardworking people who are devoted to their children.
This
statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Emma Louise KNIGHT: Witness statement, 30 April 2008 |
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Emma Louise KNIGHT: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 3 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 4 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 5 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 6 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 3
to 6
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ
Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Emma
Louise KNIGHT
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Hotel Manager
This statement
(consisting of 3 pages and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it
is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be false or do
not believe to be true.
Date: 18 April 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am currently an employee of the Mark Warner Holiday Company, 20 Kensington Church Street, London. I have worked for this
company since November 2005 and have held various positions in complexes and hotels abroad.
In March 2007 I travelled
to the Mark Warner complex in Praia da Luz, Portugal. My position was Client Support Manager and my function was to receive
and welcome the new guests and be available to resolve any problem that might arise during their stay.
The Praia
da Luz complex covers a large area and for this reason there were several locations where I worked during the day, such as
the reception, the Tapas bar area and the Millenium Restaurant.
My first contact with the couple named Gerry and
Kate McCann took place in the 24 hour reception when they arrived at the resort accompanied by their 3 children. They were
on holiday with a number of other families, some of them arrived by different means.
During the first part of
their holiday there were no problems that were brought to my knowledge relating to their stay. I knew about their three children
but I never had contact with them.
On the night of 3rd May, after having finished work, I planned to meet a group
of colleagues at 22h30 to go out. At about 22h17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me
that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated
the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.
This procedure involved the distribution
of leaflets that had already been prepared, with the names of the locations, for the members of staff, indicating the zones
that they should search. Once the location indicated had been searched, the leaflet was returned and another one with a different
location was handed over. This procedure was followed by the members of staff, but on that night about 6 residents from the
complex were also involved in the search.
I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure
went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared.
When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife
of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided
me with the details that I needed.
I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed
on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and
I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined
in the searches.
The hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised
and I can confirm that he called the police. John stayed at the location and I several times went to search the grounds. I
went with Amy and we searched the highest part of the complex behind the apartments. The search lasted for about 10 minutes
and then we returned. At that moment John asked me to go to the apartment the girl had disappeared from and, on behalf of
Mark Warner, provide all the help the family might need.
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the
patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed
in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's
bedroom and the door was half open.
A short while later, Gerry returned to the apartment accompanied by Russell.
They also entered by the patio doors.
I do not remember the exact sequence of events at this time, but I do remember
that I phoned John, who informed me that the police were on their way.
I remember that the police arrived between
00h00 and 00h30, entered by the main door and went to the kitchen with Gerry.
I went to the bedroom where Kate
and Mrs Payne were. Kate was still upset, crying and calling Madeleine's name, shouting "where is she?". She
also banged on the headboard. At that moment I went to check on the twins in their room and they were ok.
I remember
being in the main bedroom with Kate, Mrs Payne, Gerry, Russell and David who were sitting on the bed and I sat on the floor.
At that moment David suggested that the press should be contacted. Russell disagreed, saying they should keep calm and let
the police take care of the situation. At that moment Kate appeared to lose control, crying and constantly asking "where
is she?" whilst banging on the bed. Gerry remained calm throughout. On one occasion Kate and Gerry both went to the main
bedroom and I could hear both of them crying.
Quite a bit later that night I remember the police asking everyone
to leave the apartment. I received a call from John informing me that he had arranged for another apartment for the McCanns.
I went to reception and helped Lyndsey to move the two cots to the new apartment
The McCanns went to the new apartment
and I remember seeing Kate and Mrs Payne seated on the sofa, each holding one of the twins. I left the new apartment at 04.30
in the morning after instructions from John Hill. I was the last to leave, the police had already left, but I left my number
saying that I was available for anything that might be needed.
After a short rest I returned to work at 08h00.
I did not see Kate or Gerry during the whole morning, but went to the new apartment at about lunchtime. Kate and Gerry were
not there but there were other members of the group taking care of the twins. I remember there were helicopters flying overhead
and showing them to the twins.
I remember that both Kate and Gerry were calmer that day and Kate had stopped crying.
They were accompanied by family members who had travelled to Portugal and by the local priest. I remember that on the night
Madeleine disappeared, Kate wanted to contact the local priest, but it was not possible to reach him by phone.
I
remember being present in the apartment with Kate, Gerry and other members of the family when they gave their first press
conference. Gerry sat at the table and wrote what he wanted to say to the press and Kate, although she did not want to speak
to the press, accompanied Gerry and stood by his side while he read the statement. I and the others stayed at the apartment
door to observe.
During the weeks that followed, when Kate and Gerry were still staying in the complex I accompanied
them and helped in the preparation of the posters for Gerry and planned the way to take the twins to the creche without being
bothered by the press. Gerry was always calm and polite, whilst Kate could not hide her emotion. At times she appeared reasonably
all right at other times she would walk about crying.
In relation to the specific questions, these are my replies:
1. My first meeting with the McCanns occurred when they arrived at the complex and my relationship with them was purely
professional as Manager of Client Support services and as Mark Warner representative.
2) I first spoke to Gerry and
Kate McCann at about 23h00 on the night of 3rd May in their apartment after the disappearance of Madeleine.
3) Gerry
and Kate said that their daughter had disappeared and that she had been abducted.
4) I would describe Kate's reaction
as hysterical and desperate. Gerry was visibly upset and cried out of our earshot, but he maintained a firm position and helped
in all he could.
5) As mentioned previously, their emotional state was one of consternation and despair.
This
statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Linda Ruth McQUEEN: Witness statement, 07 May 2008 |
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Linda Ruth McQUEEN: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 7 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 8 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 9 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 7
to 9
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ
Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Linda
Ruth McQUEEN
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Teacher
This statement (consisting
of 2 pages and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered
in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be false or do not believe
to be true.
Date: 07 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person
referred to above living at the address previously supplied to the police of Leicestershire. I was questioned about my friendship
with the McCann and the Healy families as well as my visits to Portugal during the Summer of 2007.
During my childhood
I lived with my mother in the same street as Brian and Susan Healy, who are the parents of Kate. I have known Kate since 6
months of age and my mother and hers are still great friends today. We went to the same school even though I was 6 years older
than Kate. We continued our friendship during school and into adulthood.
Kate met Gerry while at university about
13 or 14 years ago and they married about 10 years ago. They have 3 children, Madeleine almost 5 years of age and twins, Sean
and Amelie, who are 3 years old. In October 1998 my husband and I had our daughter, Ellie, and Kate and Gerry married at Christmas
that same year. Kate and Gerry adored Ellie, both desired children. Kate wanted to have a tribe of 6 or 7. When Kate became
pregnant with Madeleine it was a great event for them, given that Kate had faced problems with conceiving. After the birth
of Madeleine the family moved to Amsterdam so that Gerry could continue his professional training. While they were there Kate
received IVF treatment and became pregnant with the twins. It was a difficult pregnancy but Sean and Amelie were born healthy
in February 2006. Before the disappearance of Madeleine last year, Mark and I used to see Kate, Gerry and the family approximately
every two months, we went to Leicester or they came to Liverpool.
On the morning of 4 May 2007 Kate's mother
telephoned my mother who, in turn, telephoned me. My mother told me that something terrible had happened, that somebody had
taken Madeleine. I later sent a text message to Kate that same night and I spoke with her on the telephone. She was hysterical,
saying only that she wanted to be able to hug Madeleine. She was worried by the fact that there were only two police officers
in the place and thought that the police were not helping her with anything. She continued to speak about Madeleine, of the
cold that she could feel since she was dressed only in pyjamas and continued to look at the situation from the perspective
of Madeleine. She told me that Gerry was outside to find the girl and during the following day we spoke on the telephone and
we frequently sent messages [to each other].
On Saturday I spoke on the telephone with Gerry who was sobbing and
we decided that I would go to Portugal as soon as Nicky Gill and Michelle Thompson returned home, to replace them and to render
assistance. During 2007 I travelled to Portugal on 3 separate occasions:
12 - 19 May, 26 - 29 June, and 19 - 26
August.
On the first occasion I caught the same flight as the priest Paul Seddon and we arrived on Saturday night.
We went straight to the apartment where Kate and Gerry were at supper, Gerry embraced us and Kate was crying. We remained
for some time and Kate repeated "where is she? Who has her?" I felt that Kate and Gerry were focused on the idea
to find Madeleine in their own way, and the local police had not progressed. I stayed in a separate room in the apartment
of Kate and Gerry during all my stay. I helped in the attempt to keep the daily routine of the twins, namely in taking them
to the day-care centre. Gerry and Kate always returned for lunch and took the children to afternoon tea in the attempt to
give a semblante of normality. Kate and Gerry were involved in innumerable interviews with the press and the police all day,
but they arranged [their] availability to always give attention to the twins, namely the bath before sleep. During it we would
speak about how things had gone during the day and make plans for the following day.
During the first week that
I was in Portugal Kate and Gerry were transported [driven] by representatives of Mark Warner. Sandy Cameron was also there
and possessed a hire car, but it was not the Renault Scenic that Gerry and Kate rented during the third week that I stayed
with them in Portugal.
In the second week that I was there, I travelled [to Portugal] with Nicky Gill. We stayed
with Trish and Sandy in the apartment close to Kate and Gerry. On this occasion Gerry drove a hire car but I do not remember
if it was the previous car of Sandy or the Renault scenic.
In the third week I travelled [to Portugal] with my
husband, Mark, our daughter Ellie and the priest Paul Seddon. Ellie and I stayed in the Villa that Kate and Gerry had rented,
Paul and Mark stayed in an apartment in the immediate vicinity. During this period both Kate and Gerry drove the Renault Scenic
and I travelled frequently in that vehicle.
With respect to rooms where I stayed, I noticed nothing strange. With
respect to the hire vehicles, I noticed nothing strange in any of them; never was there a disagreeable or intense [sharp]
smell. We frequently used the boot of the vehicles to place the things of the children and ours, given that there were two
child's chairs in the rear section that left no extra space.
There is no way Kate and Gerry could have hidden
Madeleine and carried her body inside the car to an unknown place. They are both devoted parents and it is incomprehensible
that they would have [deliberately] hurt Madeleine. As far as I know, Gerry and Kate were never alone given that the press
followed them everywhere, and would not have had a chance to do it [transport the body]. Also, I think that it would have
been impossible for Madeleine to have left the apartment by herself.
Since Kate and Gerry returned to the United
kingdom, we have kept contact through written messages almost daily. I visit them in Leicester once in a while and they also
have visited us. I have a mobile phone with the number xxxxxxxxxx that I use to contact Kate and Gerry. This telephone is
with the O2 service provider. My husband Mark has one with the number xxxxxxxxxx with the Orange service provider. At home
we have a fixed telephone with the number xxxxxxxxx.
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to
my understanding.
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Michelle THOMPSON: Witness statement, 01 May 2008 |
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Michelle THOMPSON: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 10 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 11 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 12 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 10
to 12
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Michelle THOMPSON
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: University Tutor
This statement (consisting of 2 pages and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything
I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 01 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to above and live at the address previously given to the Leicestershire police. I was questioned
related to my relationship with the McCanns and with the Healy family and also about my visit to Portugal during the summer
of 2007.
I have known Kate since the first day of nursery school 36 years ago, when we lived in Anfield, in Liverpool.
We maintained our friendship through adulthood. Kate met Gerry in University around 13 or 14 years ago and married 10 years
ago. They have thee children, Madeleine, 5 years old, and the twins, Sean and Amelie, 3 years of age. My companion and I,
Jon Corner, were Amelie's god-parents. Kate is the god-mother of my daughter Charlotte.
Before Madeleine's
disappearance last year, Jon and I saw Kate, Gerry and the family about five times per year. We would go to Leicester or they
would come to Liverpool. This would normally happen around holidays, like birthdays, Christmas, etc.
On the morning
of the 4th of May, 2007, Kate called our landline but we did not hear it as we were asleep and did not put the phone on the
bed. She left a message and asked us to call her once we heard the message. Kate must have tried Jon's mobile once as
we stirred when it rang at about 03h20. Jon spoke briefly with Kate and then called her around 03h30. I knew that Kate and
Gerry were on holiday in Portugal. Kate was very anguished on the telephone and told me that she had checked on the children
every half-hour. It was around 22h00, and when she went to check on the children she found that someone had entered the apartment
and taken Madeleine from where she slept; that Madeleine had been abducted. The person must have entered, passed by the twins
and taken her.
Kate continued that when she entered the apartment via the patio doors, a breeze hit her in the
face as if a door or window was open. When she entered the children's room, the window was open, the blind had been forced
and Madeleine had disappeared. Kate urged me to call all the close family and to ask them to pray for Madeleine. My family
is catholic and Kate knew this. Even though I am catholic, I have to admit that Kate has more faith than I. I did not speak
to Gerry that night.
During the next 24 hours, we maintained contact through text messages but I spoke to her
around 04h30 on the next day, Saturday, the 5th of May of 2007. Kate was still frustrated and anguished and felt that nobody
was doing anything to help find Madeleine. She told me that the police had left in the morning and returned around 09h30 and
that now only a few agents with sniffer dogs were in the locale. This was all the activity that I know of. I asked her if
I could help her in Portugal and she responded in the affirmative. For this reason, with a common friend, Nick Gill (whom
Kate also contacted) and I planned to fly to Faro the next day. We left from Liverpool directly to Faro on Sunday morning.
We were greeted at the airport by representatives of Mark Warner who took us to the Ocean Club resort. We met Gerry and Kate
half-way through this day. Kate looked terrible, exhausted and wasted. She lamented that Madeleine would be found in a ditch
and that the next time she would see her would be in the mortuary; that a paedophile had taken her.
Sometime later,
Gerry and Kate went to get the twins from the creche, trying to give them the most normal routine. During our stay, we helped
them were we could in maintaining some normality for the twins. At the end of this week, Kate and Gerry spoke with a psychologist
called Alan, contracted by Mark Warner. After this, both appeared calmer and more capable of analyzing the situation. On Monday,
Gerry became more confused regarding what to do and how to do it.
On Monday morning, Fiona Payne knocked on our
door and told us of a search, organised by some residents and tourists. We were transported with about 10 other people in
a mini bus. We spent the morning searching the terrain and fields of difficult access near the resort. I cannot recite precisely
the locale. There was no police involvement in this search. Around 12h00 I received a telephone from Kate asking if Nicky
and I could take care of the twins while they attended a session with the media asking for help and had just returned to the
resort. Between us both, we watched the twins that afternoon.
That night, a group of local women and children,
accompanied by the church's priest arrived at the apartment and prayed the rosary. It was at this time that Kate was given
access to the church and Gerry was loaned a laptop with access to the internet.
The next day, Tuesday, I left the
resort and returned home as I have small children. Nicky stayed a few extra days.
Since my return, we have maintained
daily contact via text messages. At times, I call, but always when I answer the telephone she appeared profoundly anguished.
During my stay, Gerry was truly disturbed but handled the situation better than Kate, especially after the conversation with
Alan, the psychologist. This was how he dealt with the situation.
Kate and Gerry never put their children at risk
and they adored Madeleine and the twins. Both love their children and Madeleine represented everything to Kate and in my opinion,
they are both excellent parents and totally devoted to their children.
This statement was made by me and is truthful
according to my understanding.
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Nicky Toni GILL: Witness statement, 07 May 2008 |
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Nicky Toni GILL: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 13 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 14 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 15 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 13
to 15
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Nicky Toni GILL
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Fitness Instructor
This statement (consisting of 3 pages and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything
I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 07 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to above, resident at the address previously provided to the Leicestershire police. I was
questioned in relation to my friendship with the McCanns and the Healy family as well as about my three visits to Portugal
during the summer of 2007.
I have known Kate since the first day of primary school 36 years ago when we both lived
in Anfield, in the Liverpool area. Since that day we have maintained our friendship during school and adult age. Kate met
Gerry when he would visit the university almost 13 to 14 years ago and they married 10 years ago. I met Gerry 1 year before
they married, when they moved to New Zealand. They have three children, Madeleine aged 5 and the twins Sean and Amelie, aged
3.
Before Madeleine's disappearance last year, Martin and I would see Kate, Gerry and the family several times
a year when they came to visit Kate's parents or sometimes when we went to Leicestershire. We would regularly talk on
the phone or send messages. Kate is the godmother to my youngest son, Harry.
I knew that they were going on holiday
to Portugal and I talked to Kate about how difficult it would be with three small children. She was hopeful that all would
go well, as all of the members of the group also had small children, and that they would all be in the same boat. Early on
the morning of Friday, 4th May 2007 Kate's mother phoned my mother who, in turn, phoned me. My mother told me that Madeleine
had disappeared and that she had been abducted. Nobody knew the full facts. I immediately sent a text message to Kate, without
really knowing what to say. Kate asked me to pray.
On the following night at about midnight, Kate contacted me
by phone, she was devastated and appeared lost. She said that judging from the action of the local police, one would think
that she "had lost a dog". Her situation was one of desperation. I then asked her by means of text message whether
she wanted me to go over and join them, to which she responded yes. She then told me that another friend, Michelle Thompson,
was also going. Michelle and I got in touch with each other and agreed to travel together.
During the following
24 hours we kept in contact by means of text messages, but I spoke with Gerry on Saturday morning and he seemed to me to be
in a nervous emotional state. He asked me to bring them some warmer clothes.
Michelle and I travelled from Liverpool
directly to Faro early on Sunday morning. We were met at the airport by representatives from Mark Warner who took us to the
Ocean Club resort. We stayed in an apartment on the top floor of the same block where Kate and Gerry were staying. We met
up with Kate and Gerry at midday the same day. Kates appearance was terrible, she looked exhausted and worn out. They were
talking to Alan, a psychologist provided by Mark Warner.
I looked out of the terrace window of the apartment and
expected to the place full of police, but there was nobody, just a helicopter flying over.
Sometime later Gerry
and Kate went to fetch the twins from the creche, trying to maintain the most normal routine possible. During the time we
were there, we tried to help out in we could and maintain some normality for the twins.
On Monday morning, Fiona
Payne knocked on our door and told us that there would be a search organised by a resident, Dave, and we agreed to join the
search and went with about 10 other people in a mini bus. We spent the morning searching grounds and areas of difficult access
surrounding the resort, but I dont know where the exact location was. There was no police involvement in these searches, but
I think that Dave was in contact with the local police. Later that day Kate phoned to ask whether Michelle and I could help
look after the twins. We entertained the children between the two of us that afternoon.
On Tuesday mid-morning
I was in the supermarket with Michael Wright when a man entered and asked loudly where GMTV was. The place was full of people
from the press. I spotted him later sitting in the bar with GMTV reporters, but I didnt see him again during the rest of my
stay in Portugal. I looked at him but I did not know who he was. It was only upon my return to England that I discovered from
the news that the man was Robert Murat.
I returned home on the following Saturday, 12th May 2007. Following my
return I maintained almost daily contact with Kate by means of text messages and sometimes by phone. When we contacted each
other I tried to be as positive as possible and raise her morale.
I had told Kate that if it was necessary for
us to return to Portugal, she only had to ask. At the end of June I think Sandy and Trish had to return to their home to deal
with some matters and Kate phoned me to ask whether I could help them during their absence. Another friend, Linda McQueen
and I travelled together on 26th June and returned on 29th June. We stayed in the apartment that Sandy and Trish had occupied.
Once again we were there to provide as much positive support as possible.
My other trip to Portugal was in August,
but I cannot remember the exact date. At that time Kate and Gerry had left the Ocean Club and had rented a villa. I travelled
alone and Gerry came to pick me up from the airport in a hire car, also alone. I stayed with them in the villa and once again
helped take care of the twins when they had meetings, etc and I offered them the best emotional support that I could.
As regards the accommodation during my visits, I never noticed anything strange in any of the places.
With
regard to the contact I had with the couple, I would say that I saw Kate and Gerry every day in the morning and at the end
of the afternoon and if they were not in meetings we would be together.
With regard to their behaviour, I do not
understand how they managed to keep functioning, given the circumstances, how they managed to keep going. Kate was in a very
unstable emotional state. Gerry appeared to be more concentrated on what needed to be done but he also had his moments of
greater depression.
With regard to the car hired by Kate and Gerry, it was a Renault Scenic, but I think that
they only had it when I travelled to Portugal for the last time. I would be transported in the car daily, given that the villa
was located outside of the resort. There was nothing strange about the car, I never noticed any unusual odour. There was no
way in which Kate and Gerry could have hidden Madeleine and then have transported her body to another place. They were never
alone and had the worlds press literally camped at their door.
Kate and Gerry never placed the children at risk
and I know that they adored Madeleine and the twins, because they both very much wanted to have children. They both loved
their children, Madeleine meant everything to Kate and in my opinion they are both excellent parents, totally devoted to their
children.
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Michael George WRIGHT: Witness statement, 01 May 2008 |
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Michael George WRIGHT: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 16 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 17 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 16
to 17
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Michael George WRIGHT
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Retired
This statement (consisting of 1 page and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything
I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 01 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I live at the address previously furnished to the Leicester police and I am currently retired.
In May 2007
I went to Portugal with my wife on a golfing trip known as Wycherts Springs Tour. We were 14 people on a trip organised by
Roger Gaudoin.
We were lodged in a house of one of the group members named David Beatty whose address is: xxxxxxxx.
Although the trip was organised by by Roger, it was I who reserved the flights for my wife and for me. Our friend
John Brown organised the rental vehicle that we were going to use whilst we were in Portugal.
My wife and I caught
the Easyjet flight from Luton to Faro on 8 May 2007. At the Faro airport John was to collect the rental car that he had reserved,
on which I was added as additional driver. The car was used basically by me and my wife, by John and his wife. The only other
person of the group who travelled in the vehicle during that week was Mrs Rathbone.
I don't remember
any detail of the car. I think it was a silver-grey Peugeot, but consulting the Budget rental contract I confirm that it was
a Renault. The only memory that I have of the vehicle is that it did not have a key to start the ignition, but some kind of
credit card that was inserted into a slot.
The car was returned to Rent-a-Car at the airport on 15 May 2007 at
the end of our stay. But no-one other than John Brown and myself drove the vehicle during that week.
I am not known
by the McCann family nor have I ever met with any of them.
During the period that I used the vehicle no-one was
wounded or had wounds that bled, nor was any cadaver transported nor did anyone die.
This testimony was made by
me and is true according to my understanding.
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Peter Neal PATTERSON: Witness statement, 08 May 2008 |
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Peter Neal PATTERSON PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 18 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 19 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 20 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 18
to 20
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Peter Neal PATTERSON
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Solicitor
This statement (consisting of 3 pages and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and
I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything
I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 08 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to above and live at the address previously provided to the police.
I was
questioned by DC Ferguson and by DC Messiah of the Leicestershire Police at the request of the Portuguese police whose charge
is to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine.
As regards the questions, I can offer the following information:
I have known Kate and Gerry since 2002. My wife (Bridget) and Kate both trained in general medicine and have become
good friends. We have also learnt that Kate attended the same university we did in Dundee even though she was not there when
we attended. My wife faced some clinical problems (a miscarriage and an ectopic/tubal pregnancy) and we discovered that Kate
and Gerry were also having problems conceiving a child. This brought Bridget and Kate even closer. This occurred in mid-2002.
I believe that we tried to get pregnant five years ago. Suddenly Kate became pregnant with Madeleine and my wife and I had
our first child, a boy, who was born after Madeleine's birth. Later Kate again became pregnant with Sean and Amelie. Our
youngest son was born nine months ago today.
My wife maintains regular contact with Kate and as a result we visited
them once in Queniborough. We have yet to visit their home in Rothley. I saw Madeleine for the last time on my son's birthday,
the 1st of September of 2006. The friendship between Kate and Bridget is focused on themselves and the children. I have met
Gerry and know him well enough to maintain a casual conversation.
Madeleine disappeared on Thursday night, 03
May 2007. Normally I have a habit of listening to the news every morning but on Friday, 04 May 2007, I had an early morning
meeting and for this reason did not see the news. After the meeting I received a text message from my wife informing me of
Madeleine's disappearance. The rest of the week was spent listening to the news, and trying to prevent my son from recognising
Madeleine as he has asked what was going on.
My wife and I decided to travel to Portugal. We caught a flight to
faro on Tuesday, 08 May 2007. We did this in the hope of offering our help and support and to do something other than just
sit at home watching from afar. My wife sent a text message to Kate telling her of our flight. We reached Praia da Luz around
eleven o'clock or half-past [eleven] that morning.
I caught a ride from the airport to Praia da Luz with someone
I knew. There were two receptions in the resort. I asked the service staff about helping out with the volunteer searches and
they told me to head to the hotel's principal reception where people would come together every morning. The group that
day had already departed and for this reason I caught a taxi to Lagos to try and find a place to stay.
I was at
a slight advantage relative to other Brits because I have a slight understanding of the different laws in Portugal. Most people
do not understand the difference between the adversarial system of justice in the U.K. and the inquisitorial systems of Europe.
I met Kate and Gerry on Friday after having made contact with them via written messages during the week. They
knew I was participating in the searches that week. I felt dispirited because there appeared to be no coordination or leadership
to the searches. Many people went searching without adequate local equipment, like, for example, people were cutting their
feet on the rough terrain or on the shrubs in those locales. Many people wore sandals and walked over tough land. I never
saw any police involvement in the operations carried out by civilians.
On Friday the 11th of May 2007 we heard
rumours that the Portuguese were going to stop the searches. After having passed this information to Kate we met up in the
Tapas bar in the resort between half past ten and a quarter to nine in the morning. We met for only a half hour to 40
minutes as Kate had to attend a police interview.
During this meeting, I offered Kate a bible. This happened in
the sequence of emotions that Kate was obviously feeling and after our having sat down to speak. We did not know each other
well as she is predominantly my wife's friend. I am the team leader of The Salvation Army in South Wigston, Leicestershire.
I have a particular interest in the bible and the form in which it is written. I attended the course "Alpha Course"
(an introduction to Christianity) and recommended to Kate some of the passages in the bible that she could read for her own
comfort. There was a dedication from me to my wife on the first page, as it had previously been a gift from me to her. I have
a tendency to mark pages and passages in the bible and even though this was my spouse's bible, there were many marked/tagged
passages relevant to the both of us. This happened before Madeleine's disappearance.
I encouraged Kate to
read Psalms ten and twenty of the Old Testament as I felt these were relevant to her. They are both believers. The Psalms
reveal a confidence in God, in his justice and in the question which can be asked "Why do bad things happen?". Psalm
twenty is a small oration asking Him to guide and illuminate our path in times of anguish.
The passage which is
marked in my wife's bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has
no significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have
now lost, we will find them one day.
After meeting with Kate, I returned to Lagos and caught a taxi to Portimão
where I had previously (May 2003) visited a Christian bookstore. I went with the purpose to acquire a new bible to help me
through the rest of the week. Unfortunately, I did not find the bookstore.
Kate asked me to pray at the Marina,
which I did, a number of times during the week. I returned home on Sunday, 13th of May, 2007, leaving from Faro at 09h30.
This testimony was made by me and is the truth in accordance with my understanding.
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Justine McGUINNESS: Witness statement, 12 May 2008 |
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Justine McGUINNESS: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 21 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 22 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 21
to 22
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Justine McGUINNESS
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Public Relations
Consultant
This statement (consisting of 2 page and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge
and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully
stated in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 12 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to above and I live at the address previously supplied to the Leicestershire police. I was
questioned about my association with Gerry and Kate McCann and about my visit to Portugal in the summer of 2007, after the
disappearance of their daughter, Madeleine McCann.
I am the owner of a Public Relations Consultancy company. During
the end of the month of May, beginning of June I was contacted by recruitment consultants who asked me whether I was interested
in working for the campaign to find Madeleine McCann. This occurred after some advice given to Kate and Gerry by Alex Woolfall.
Alex Woolfall is the public relations officer for Mark Warner.
I agreed to present my CV for the consideration
of Kate and Gerry McCann. A short time later I received a phone call from Gerry who asked me a number of questions by phone.
It was almost a mini interview that included questions about me and continued to talk about the kind of support that they
were looking for. Later I went for another interview in London. I was interviewed by Gerry McCann, John McCann and Jon Corner.
On the same day I agreed to undertake the role which would be to manage the campaign to find Madeleine.
Initially
I appeared in an interview with Gerry McCann for Newsnight (BBC news programme) on the same day that I took up my role. Gerry
returned to Portugal some days later, I stayed in the UK and attended meetings in the name of the Campaign. I travelled to
Portugal on the fiftieth day anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance, Friday the 22nd June 2007. I stayed in an apartment
in the Mark Warner complex, very close to where Kate and Gerry were staying. This was the same apartment that they were using
as an office.
During my stay I would regularly meet with Gerry and Kate. I also regularly collaborated with the
world press. Part of my role was to manage the press communications in the name of Kate, Gerry and Madeleine.
My
involvement in the "Find Madeleine" campaign ended on 15 September 2007. During my time as director of the campaign
I made several trips to Portugal.
I did not know Kate and Gerry McCann before May 2007. My relationship with them
was purely professional and lasted for 89 days.
I do not remember the dates of the trips but as was mentioned previously,
there were several trips. I stayed in the apartment mentioned previously, as well as in another apartment in the same block.
I also stayed in hotels in the area for short periods of time. I never noticed anything strange about any of the lodgings.
I spent much time with Kate and Gerry but I am unable to quantify exactly how much time. I would meet them at their
apartment as well as in the private villa where they were staying.
Kate and Gerry were in a very frustrating situation,
at times I could see that they were under great pressure. They managed to cope with the pressure and I credit them with behaving
as true professionals would have done in an identical situation. I remember that on certain days Kate was very tearful and
sad. I also remember Gerry's frustration upon seeing the presentation of some photos of Madeleine one night.
I travelled as a passenger in the Renault Scenic many times, which was driven by Kate and Gerry and their family members,
Sandy Cameron and Michael Wright. I cannot specify the number of times that I travelled in the vehicle.
The first
time that I travelled inside the vehicle was when I arrived at Faro on the fiftieth day anniversary. At that time the car
smelt exactly like what you would expect after having been cleaned by a rental car company. I never noticed unpleasant odours.
Unfortunately I cannot answer the last question because I was obviously not present from the first day they hired
the car, neither during the period of the lease. Because of my knowledge of the routine and the number of members from the
press that surrounded them, I think it unlikely that they could have hidden or transported Madeleine in the vehicle.
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Kenneth WALKDEN: Witness statement, 29 April 2008 |
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Kenneth WALKDEN: Witness statement PJ Files |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 23 |
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 24 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 23
to 24
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Kenneth WALKDEN
Age if less than 18:
Occupation: Semi Retired
This statement (consisting of 1 page and signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing
that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be
false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 29 April 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the person referred to above and resident at the address provided to the police. I was requested to provide information
relating to the vehicle that I hired/used during my visit to Portugal in 2007.
In March 2007 I travelled to Portugal
for holiday with a group of friends, to play golf. This trip was organised by a friend of mine called Pxxxx Sxxxx, including
the flight reservations, accommodation, hire car, etc. Pxxxx used a travel agency for this purpose, but I don't know the
name of the agency. These holidays were repeated every year and we were twelve in total; me, PS, DH, MA, RD, CP, AF, KL, KT,
JG, GT and RW.
We travelled from Birmingham to Faro on 25 March 2007 and upon our arrival we divided ourselves
into groups of three. Pxxxx had arranged all the car rentals, but I don't remember from which agency. I was one of the
designated drivers, I signed the rental contract and paid for the extra insurance with my credit card. The other two reimbursed
me in cash. I knew that it was a Renault but I first thought that it was a Megane, however DC Johnson confirmed to me that
it was in fact a Scenic. I remember that it was dark coloured, probably blue but I am not 100% certain, I do not remember
the number plate and I do not have any paper in my possession relating to the hiring of the vehicle.
I was the
only driver of the vehicle and the passengers during the holiday were CP and GT. On the day that we did not play golf, PS
also travelled with us. I can confirm that none of the passengers suffered any injury or wound, they did not have any injury
neither did they bleed. I can state with all certainty that nobody died in the vehicle.
We returned to the UK on
the 1st April 2007 and delivered the vehicle to the rental agency at Faro airport. We caught the plane to Birmingham on the
same day.
I am not familiar with any member of the McCann family and neither do I know any of them.
This
statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Ivor MESSIAH: Witness statement (relative to recorded interview with Carole TRANMER), 15
May 2008
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Ivor MESSIAH: Witness statement (relative to recorded interview with Carole TRANMER) PJ
Files
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 25 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Page
25
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ
Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of:
Ivor MESSIAH
Age if less than 18:
Occupation:
This statement (consisting of 1 page and
signed by me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I
shall be liable to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 15 May 2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am police detective 1485 with
the Leicestershire police and work in the Braunstone police squad in the criminal investigation unit.
On Tuesday,
the 22nd of April of 2008 I was in the service of the force.
Between 08h55 and 10h25 of this same day. An interview
relevant to witness Carole TRANMER occurred in the interview room. The interview was recorded on DVD and appended as evidence
(IM/28a) together with a copy of the DVD (IM/28B). Appended also is the transcription of this same interview as
evidence (IM/28).
During the course of the interview, Carole TRANMER provided the following evidence:
CT/10
- Outline of Ocean Club apartment block
CT/11 - Outline of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz
CT/12 - A photograph
taken from the terrace of apartment 5G on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007
At 11h10 of this same day I collected
three pieces of evidence from Carole TRANMER.
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Carole TRANMER: Witness statement (relative to recorded interview with Ivor MESSIAH), 22
April 2008
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Carole TRANMER: Witness statement (relative to recorded interview with Ivor MESSIAH) PJ
Files
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| Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, page 26 |
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04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Page
26
Leicestershire Constabulary
Witness Statement
CJ
Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5'(3) e 5B; Regular Criminal Process 2005, Decision 27.1
Statement of: Carole
TRANMER
Age if less than 18:
Occupation:
This statement (consisting of 1 page and signed by
me) is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is tendered in evidence, I shall be liable
to prosecution if I have wilfully stated in it anything I know to be false or do not believe to be true.
Date: 22 April
2008
Signature _________________________________________
I am the above referenced person and live at the
address previously given to the police by my husband.
On Tuesday the 22nd of April of 2008, I attended the police
station in Enderby, Leicestershire. I spoke with DC 1485 Messiah.
Between 9h43 and 11h00 he conducted a recorded
video interview, during which I drew an outline of the apartment block (evidence CT10) which I visited on Tuesday, the 3rd
of May of 2008.
During this interview I presented a map of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, and signalled where
I visited, subject to what I have already described. This evidence is referenced as CT11.
During this interview,
I also showed DC Messiah a photograph taken by my husband on Sunday, the 29th of April, 2007. The photograph shows me on the
terrace of my aunt's apartment in the Ocean Club. I am turned towards the crosswalk, but did not, on this occasion, see
the subject. This photograph is referenced as evidence CT12.
At 11h10 on Tuesday, the 22nd of April of 2008 I handed
this evidence to DC Messiah.
This statement was made by me and is truthful according to my understanding.
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Carole TRANMER: Transcript of recorded interview, 22 April 2008 |
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Carole TRANMER: Transcript of recorded interview PJ
Files
04-Carta Rogatoria - Depoimentos 1, Pages 27-72
Leicestershire Constabulary
Formula MG15(T)
Transcribed/Recorded Witness Statement
Person interviewed:
Carole TRANMER
Location of interview: Enderby Police Station
Date of Interview: 22 of April of 2008
Start time:
09h43
Stop time: 11h10
Agent that conducted the interview: DC 1485 MESSIAH
Other people present:
n':
IM28
Page Numbers: 54
Signature of Interviewer:
Agent that produced the documents: Messiah DC1485
Duration
of interview: 87 minutes
Recording Ref': IM28A
DC1485'The recording is now live.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'This interview is being video recorded, it is Tuesday, the 22nd of April, 2008, and the hour on my watch
is 9 hours and 40 minutes. I am DC Ivor MESSIAH and I am a detective with the Leicestershire police in the Criminal Investigation
unit and would like to ask her to present herself and tell me her name, the date of her birth and her address, please'
CT'Humm...my name is Carol TRANMER and my date of birth is the first day of 1948 and I live at, humm... (detail
removed).
DC1485'Okay, and your occupation, I believe, you are retired'
CT'I am now retired,
yes.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'What was your occupation before retirement'
CT'Humm...
Yes, before retirement I worked temporarily for, more or less a year, and before that, I ran an antique business.
DC1485'Right.
CT'I owned it for, humm... four years, and before this I worked as a secretary at Windsor
Castle.
DC1485'Right.
CT'For this reason, humm... I worked as an administrative secretary for
most of my life.
DC1485'How nice. Did you like what you did'
CT'Yes, very much so, yes.
DC1485'Do you have children'
CT'No, I do not have children.
DC1485'You
have no children, therefore, do you live alone with your husband'
CT'Yes, we (inaudible).
DC1485'How
long have you been married'
CT'We have been married for 20 years and... humm, have lived together for 23
years in (address removed).
DC1485'In the same location'
CT'In the same house.
DC1485'Same house, yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'You told me that you worked at Windsor Castle'
CT'Windsor Castle.
DC1485'Did you know the Queen'
CT'Yes. I knew her.
DC1485'Personally or'
CT'All, all, yes. The entire family, the whole royal family, yes.
DC1485'How did that happen'
CT'I worked in the Royal Collection and hummm... I was a personal
assistant in the royal library and bookstore. I frequently encountered the royal family in private visits. There was also
the Easter Court where the entire Buckingham Palace would usually come. Everyone had a very restricted calendar regarding
their duties , thus if anything happened to the royal family, if they brought friends of visitors to Windsor, I had the opportunity
to meet them and to show them around.
Dc1485'And did you speak to the Queen or Philip'
CT'Mmm,
yes, yes.
DC1485'And Diana, did you know Diana'
CT'No, I never knew Diana. She was not there
at the time.
DC1485'That must have been lamentable for you.
CT'Pardon'
DC1485'Of
not having the opportunity to meet her' Not having the opportunity to meet her is a shame given what happened to her also.
CT'Yes, yes.
CT'Yes, a tragedy, but it was a good experience working there.
DC1485'Great!
It is good that you liked it.
CT'Yes, I liked it.
DC1485'The reason for our discussion today,
Carole, has to do with the Portuguese investigation regarding the disappearance of Madeleine McCANN on Thursday the 3rd of
May of 2007. Essentially, the Portuguese police, or the PJ as they are also known, are leading this investigation and have
asked us, the Leicestershire police--because the McCANN family are also from Leicestershire--to be the their link in England
to the investigation. Do you understand what we have to do'
CT'Mmm, mmm yes.
DC1485'The
reason for speaking to you is obviously the same reason we are speaking to the other people who were in Portugal and who know
the McCann family. They are all being questioned and their statements recorded on video, as are you. You are not in the minority'everyone's
testimony has proceeded in the same way.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And as I have already mentioned,
the reason for this meeting is to produce an interview so that the Portuguese authorities can have all the statements that
are needed in order to proceed with the investigation and/or conclude the enquiry. This is their decision and we are merely
collaborating with them.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'They only want us to speak with you so as to elaborate
questions or to our interview technique. Short of this, they are trying to see if there is any existing piece of information
that may surface.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DCc1485'Are you okay'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'What
I am about to ask you Caroline, is to make an introduction, that you tell me a bit about yourself and how you managed or organised
your stay in Portugal during the time of the disappearance.
CT'Mmm, good. My aunt, Pamela Fenn, lives in a
Luz apartment and we visit her frequently. Our last visit was a result of a birthday gift, if you can call it that. But our
trip was in reality to look for a home, as we would like to live there one day. For this reason, we stayed in the eastern
Algarve, not in my aunt's house but in a small complex whose name I do not remember.
DC1485'Could it have
been Pinhal do Sol'
CT'Yes, that is it.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'So, we stayed there.
We booked a reservation for only a week, and hummm'on Sunday, we decide to visit my aunt and to take her to lunch. It
was at this point that the photographs of our holidays were taken.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'After this
we spent the rest of our time in the eastern Algarve to look at properties and on Thursday'my birthday was on Tuesday'we
decided to take my aunt to lunch before our return the next Saturday. The incident happened on Thursday.
DC1485'Yes.
You should continue and explain how everything happened.
CT'Yes, I will describe it; I will describe everything,
everything that I can.
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look
below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving,
opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and
the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and
exclaimed 'That was really very strange', but they were talking and very involved in the conversation (inaudible).
I became involved in the conversation and did not think anymore about the incident. We left when it was around 6h30, after
having finished eating and doing other things, and on Friday we passed by car, continuing to look at properties and such.
We did not visit any estate agents, and on Saturday we left. We got to the airport and heard people talking about a missing
child. This did not yet bring anything back and we commented on the horror.
CT'After arriving home, Sunday
morning we woke and read the Times Sunday paper. There we saw my aunt's apartment and the notice about the missing child.
I did not want to believe it and for this reason telephoned her and said: 'Did you see'' to which she responded
'It was been an inferno, terrible since both of you left'. After this I spoke with my cousin, whose son is at Sandhurst
and told her 'What do you think we should do, do you think'' because at this time I remembered that I had seen
something. It did not come to me right away but afterwards I told my husband 'Well, I saw that funny situation, you know'that
type of behavior of the individual, with a sneaky aspect' to which he responded, 'Well you should talk to the police',
and I said 'Yes, but it is likely that it has nothing to do with it'. After, we thought a bit more about it and I
telephoned my cousin who is at Sandhurst and he told me that I should call the police and tell them. I did exactly this. I
telephoned the Windsor police and told them, more or less, what I had told him and to my family. They told me that they would
give me a number to call the Leicester police. We passed by the Windsor squadron but it is clear that no one was there so
I called the Leciester police and told them basically what I had seen. They told me, well'thank you, we are going to get
in touch with you, and after that everything happened. This is what happened, more or less.
CT'Thus, this
was when I called them, that is when you, sir, called me.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'After that, you booked
a meeting time so that someone could come and speak with me
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And I was working
temporarily (inaudible) for the Royal Borough of Maidenhead.
DC1485'Did they visit you at work'
CT'Yes, they came to the office as they asked me what would be easier and I told them that it would be easier if they
could come to me so that I would not miss too much work and'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Then, I arranged
a room and they came to visit.
DC1485'Wonderful.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'Were they at
all unaccommodating'
CT'No.
DC1485'The fact that they came to visit you.
CT'No,
no, truthfully, I am only trying to help.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'An after having spoken to them, I
received a call from someone in Reading asking me to help in trying to create what they called an 'identi-kit'.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'They asked me 'if it was possible' and I responded 'yes, of course'
and they came from Reading. I reserved another room for them and it was in this way that everything happened, and'
DC1485'Okay Carole. I have read your statement from the 8th of May, 2007, more or less one week after you saw
the individual. It would be easier if you read the statement yourself and tell me if there is anything you want to add.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'I would like to analyse a few parts of your statement with you, if you allow me,
and to stimulate your memory to see if you remember anything else in relation to your stay.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'I would like to clarify in your statement'-your statement 'On the 28th of May, 2008'my husband
and I, Chris TRANMER, caught a flight to Portugal to spend a week of holidays in the eastern Algarve' and in addition,
to look for properties to buy. 'We stayed in a location called'"
Dc1485'Quarteira, is that so'
CT'I believe so.
DC1485'Quarteira.
CT'That is it, Quarteira, Quarteira.
DC1485'Quarteira, in a zone called (inaudible).
CT'(inaudible) mmm, mmm.
CT''We rented
a vehicle to travel. My aunt lives in apartment 20, Waterside Gardens, Praia da Luz, Bloco 5G in the Ocean Club. We went to
visit her on Sunday, the 29th of May'. Is this wrong'
CT'No, it is not correct. We arrived on Saturday,
DC1485'Well then, it was after, after the disappearance of Madeleine. Was it not'
CT'No,
no because this, humm... was in April, it was the 1st of May, Tuesday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We arrived
more or less in the end of April.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Therefore, it was... my birthday was on the
1st, Tuesday, and Thursday was the 1st of May.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus, we arrived the Saturday
before.
DC1485'Let me show you what you said, where I want to arrive, ma'am, you returned to Portugal
after the disappearance of Madeleine'
CT'No.
DC1485'So that date is incorrect'
CT'Yes. It was in fact in April.
DC1485'April, this is it then'
CT'Yes, I should have
read this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Or no, I don't know.
DC1485'It says here, Saturday,
the 28th of May.
CT'It was the 28th of April because it was on the 3rd, Thursday, when we took my aunt to lunch.
CT'Yes and after we went to visit her on Sunday. We visited her on the 29th of April.
DC1485'And
here it says May, thus this statement is incorrect, right'
CT'Yes of course.
DC1485'Good.
Let us clarify the statement collected on the 8th of May, relative to the dates referred to.
CT'Yes, it was
wrong, it was in April.
DC1485'In fact it should be Saturday, the 28th of April.
CT'Sure.
DC1485'This is correct, of course it was.
CT'I got confused when I read this.
DC1485'Yes,
I would also get confused.
DC1485'Good, then in relation to the date, everything is now correct'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Yes, good. Relative to what you said happened on Thursday, your statement states
that Thursday, the 3rd, you went to visit your aunt. Therefore, you saw her on Sunday'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'And after that you went in search of properties'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Passing through
the eastern Algarve, right'
CT'That is correct, yes.
DC1485'Thursday, the 3rd of May.
CT'May, mmm, mmm.
DC1485'You returned to your aunt in Praia. Now tell me from where you were coming
and tell me about that day.
CT'We, we were lodged in Quarteira.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'On
this day, that morning, we left towards Luz but we took a bit of time, not much, much time. I do not remember now but it was
about an hour or so because we were in the eastern part and she lives in the barlavento region of the Algarve.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We drove from there until Luz where my aunt lived, humm...I don't remember but I believe that we also
went shopping for her before our lunch and we had coffee when we arrived, humm... It should have been 11 or around noon when
we arrived, humm... after we went to pick her up. We met up, drank a coffee on the terrace and after went out to lunch in
Lagos, which is humm... in the old part of the city. There is a restaurant there whose specialty is fish and she really wanted
to go there. We returned around 3:30, sat on the terrace, had a coffee and stayed in the apartment until around 6:30 and left
around 6:30 that same day.
DC1485'This was on Sunday, right'
CT'No, this was on Thursday.
DC1485'This on Thursday, I understand.
CT'This all happened on Thursday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We left around 6:30. It was already dusk because at that time of the year, it gets dark quickly in Portugal.
We drove to our hotel and arrived at 8:30, eight or 8:30.
DC1485'It was a two hour trip then'
CT'It was about that, mmm, yes, it was a considerable distance.
DC1485'Speak to me about the apartment
where your aunt lives.
CT'Sure (inaud'le)
DC1485'It is obviously called, given its location,
the Ocean Club, right'
CT'It is in the Ocean Club, but she...
DC1485'How long has she been
there, in that apartment'
CT'When my uncle died, they had a villa close to Lagos, but when he died of Alzheimer's,
she sold it to buy the site in Luz. She bought it because it was surrounded by people and it was easy for her to come and
go as she did not want a big site. She bought it in 2003'since 2003 and it is the second or third floor, I am never certain,
but I believe that there is one more apartment
DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.
DC1485'Third floor.
CT'There
is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs.
There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'
CT'You
turn left.
DC1485'Sure.
CT'You walk, as it is a long corridor. It is open at the back part,
it is an open corridor open in such a way one can see the front because the back part, if you can call that part which is
turned toward the pool, but the front part of the building, is in truth the back of the same. Does this make sense'
DC1485'Yes, that makes sense.
CT'Because this is the entry, the only entry point and exit point,
after this there is only the veranda and the terrace and nothing more. It has been there since 2003.
DC1485'And
when you enter, give me a description of the apartment.
CT'I will describe what one sees when entering. Well,
when one enters there is a small entrance hall where you find her room and the living area. After, there is one more room
on the opposite side of the small veranda. It is not really a veranda but a passage where one can walk; there is a window
and an entrance door. This window is normally covered by a closed blind because it is the guest room; after that is a front
door in such a position'the window is there and the door and when one enters there is an access door to the to the guest
room and after, her room, which is at the edge of the building.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'One passes
through there and there is a bathroom and through the entrance hall there is a guest room, a kitchen and an eating area. After
the living area, there is a big open terrace'where we would usually go. It is completely open.
DC1485'When
you are on the terrace, to which direction are you turned'
CT'We are turned to a beautiful view of the
ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts,
and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there
are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.
DC1485'Who else lives there'
CT' Actually, she is the only resident, which may seem strange but she wants to be there. So she is the only
resident. All the other owners, the majority of them, more or less, are people who acquired the apartments and rent them or
else use them only for holidays. For this reason, there are times in the year when she is alone.
DC1485'And
who else lives with her'
CT' She is completely alone.
DC1485'Alone.
CT'
No one else.
DC1485'So, in addition to your visit...'
CT' When we visit or stay in the
apartment with her, we do not take advantage of her because she is an older woman; she is eighty-something and as you know,
it is not big enough for us to stay there with her.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' We always stay somewhere
else, local. It is easier for her.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' And she does not have to worry about us
and with the family. She has many relatives who visit and normally they all stay...
DC1485'Somewhere else.
CT' Unless it is just for a weekend or something similar.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' Normally,
because it is a lot of work and you know, she is arthtritic and these things; well, we prefer to stay somewhere else close
to her.
DC1485'And you can confirm that it is block 5G'
CT'5G yes.
DC1485'And
the name of, and the number of the apartment, 5G'
CT' No, the apartment is the twentieth.
DC1485'Apartment
20.
CT' Apartment 20.
DC1485'Waterside Gardens'
CT' Yes. Waterside Gardens,
yes.
DC1485'Very good. When you look outside, as you mentioned a while ago, when you spoke of the view at which
you were turned when you enter the terrace, tell me, what do you see below that area'
CT' Well, below,
if you look right down, there is a street which leads to the supermarket which is at the end of a small' I call it an
alley' a long passageway in front of all of the verandas that look towards the pool. There is a hedge which lines the
small gates which gave access to the ground-floor apartments and it was through one of these small gates that I saw this person
leave.
DC1485'Very good.
CT' And it was here from where he left. After this, he looked to
this side and left quickly and disappeared in that direction. That brought him along the street leading up to the supermarket,
or up until the top of the hill ahead. I do not know which direction he took (inaudible).
DC1485'Okay. And
did you see anyone else; you know what day it was; the day you were there, on Thursday. Do you know if there were more tourists
in that block of apartments'
CT' No, that is to say, there were more people in the pool zone. There were
more people around. I believe that it may be possible some were swimming, or even playing tennis. I cannot remember.
DC1485'Was there anyone who called your attention' Think, think well about the location and where you were on this
day.
CT' On that day'
DC1485'Besides the individual, obviously.
CT' Besides
him...
DC1485'Yes.
CT' No one comes to mind. The one thing that I do remember is that some celebration
was going on, but I don't know if it was the Sunday or the Thursday. There was some celebration, next to the pool. I do
not know if it was the families, the guests of the complex, but there was something. The only thing I can say is that it could
have been Sunday or Thursday. I cannot remember and for this reason I would like to leave out this detail.
DC1485'When
you speak of a celebration' was it was a barbeque or a bunch of people in good moods'
CT' Well, it
appeared to be a celebration, you know, with all the people in good moods and a lot of noise' not much noise but people
were laughing and I do not know if this was on Sunday or Thursday.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' This detail
I will not mention since I am not certain if it was Sunday or Thursday. Yes, and I don't want to confuse my recollection
with this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT' Mmm, but I believe that there is nothing more. I cannot remember
anything more about anyone; nothing more about this.
DC1485'When you were there, did you visit the supermarket'
CT' Humm... I am not certain if I went there that morning. I believe that is possible my husband passed by
there to pick up something for mu aunt. Me, no. It could have been Sunday' as you can see once again I am uncertain, I
am sorry I cannot remember.
DC1485'Try to position yourself during the second visit; given what happened on
Thursday, think about the hour you arrived. Think about whether someone welcomed you when you exited the car. Ok'
CT' Mmm.
DC1485'On Thursday.
CT' Well, we arrived and went directly to the apartment.
My husband thinks that he noticed something. I think that we went to the supermarket on the street to the restaurant to see
if' to find blubs for the light fixture. This was before lunch. We looked around the supermarket for these special bulbs
for her. He could have gone alone or' I do not know. I did not go but it is possible he went, but no'I cannot remember.
We got together and had coffee and after went out for lunch. It had to around noon or something similar but it was probably
noon because we wanted to get to the restaurant around this time as it fills quickly and is well known and frequented by locals.
They only serve fish, fish, fish, but she adores it. For this reason we had to arrive early before the other people' around
noon.
DC1485'Noon.
CT'Well we must have left home around 11h00 to 11h30'mmm'
DC1485'And did you go on foot or by car'
CT'No, we had to drive there.
DC1485'How
long did the journey take'
CT'Hum, it was not very long'it is in Lagos.
DC1485'It is
in Lagos.
CT'Yes, from Luz to Lagos.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It must have been about
15 minutes.
DC1485'Okay. What was the restaurant called'
CT'Well, I do not remember the
name (inaud'le) or something like that. It is located in the old part of the city and one goes climbing until the top
(inaudible) yes. 'Esquitera' or something like that. I don't remember its proper name.
DC1485'It
is a restaurant that serves fish'
CT'It is a restaurant that serves fish. It is very well known.
DC1485'On top of the hill'
CT'But it is not a tourist location; it is more for local people, more
or less, but it is the best, mmm, and it is not refined. The tables are made of wood with oilcloth and the fish, you know...
it is wonderful.
DC1485--Yes.
CT'But I cannot remember the name it is (inaudible) or something like
that.
DC1485'Okay.
DC1485'Did you go to the Tapas Bar with your aunt'
CT'No,
no, no it was not there when I visited the last time, and it is something very recent; I believe that it was built about a
year ago and I was there before the Tapas Bar was constructed. I think it was a part of the reception or something similar.
We were not there before. It is very new.
DC1485'And the courts, did you visit the tennis courts'
CT'No, we do not play tennis and we did not swim in the pool.
DC1485'You did not use the pool'
CT'No.
DC1485'And the cr'he'did you go to the cr'he zone where the children were'
CT'No, I would not go to the cr'he as there was no reason to.
DC1485'Okay. How many times were
you there exactly'
CT'Hum... in Portugal or in Luz'
DC1485'Okay, in this resort'
CT'A few times, perhaps three; the first time was when my aunt moved in 2003 or 2004 and after that for a week.
My brother dies in 2003 and I remember that my uncle, Aunt Pamela's husband, died in June of 2003. As there were four
deaths in our family in the first four months of that year, the time of her move has stayed in my memory.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, she was very upset with all of it, and I was trying to help her cope along with dealing with my twin
brother's death. For this reason, I went to visit her for a week in February in 2004. It was my first time in that place
but we had already been in Luz before that when we went to Portugal as tourists. After that, we went a second time with my
husband and stayed in (inaudible) a small fishing village about 10 minutes from Luz. We have already been in Portugal many
times, but to visit Luz only three times.
DC1485'Okay. When you were there how was the temperature'
CT'It was good, sunny and hot. At times it was necessary to use a sweater but during the day it was marvellous.
Besides this, it was fresh and but very agreeable.
CT'I believe it rained one day; it was a bit windy, besides
this... it was wonderful weather ' not for sun bathing, even though there were people doing just this but it was not really
sun bathing weather.
DC1485'The (inaudible) people. What I will do next Carole, is to show you a part of a
map, okay, and I will ask you to outline some parts as well.
CT'Outline'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Oh my God.
DC1485'You spoke, you spoke of, of, of another man you saw.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'You saw him leaving your aunt's terrace'
CT'Mmm, mmm
DC1485'This,
this is a map, it only covers the Luz area and he have here, if you can imagine, or even see exactly, the block of apartments.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And here is the pool.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Here
is the Tapas Bar and restaurant.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Here is the tennis court.
CT'Mmm,
mmm.
DC1485'Right here.
DC1485'This is rua estreita.
CT'That is rua estreita.
DC1485'The passageway, right.
DC1485'Point me to the direction from which the individual came.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And if you could show me in the way a camera captures an image. From, from
which apartment did he leave and to where did he go and where were you'
CT'In my aunt's, in the apartment
of my aunt in the corner to the top.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Look to the bottom where you were looking,
if you want. You were looking to the bottom to the right and downwards, but this is not towards the lower apartment but is
actually slightly to the right and there is her veranda and finally, here on top, for I would say that here there is a small
gate'for this reason it was not this apartment in the end, that is what I wanted to say, you know'
CT'It
was not the last one, yes, it was not exactly the last of the street.
DC1485'No, it was not the first gate.
CT'Of the interior.
CT'Where, if you have access.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'From
there, there is a gate. It was not this gate, it was'when you leave the rua estreita, is it the very first gate you see.
DC1485'How many gates are there in total'
CT'I think that all of them have small gates.
DC1485'I am looking.
CT'Yes, as I recall or think, but I believe they are for all people.
I am not certain because I never saw the lower apartments having access to the others, no. For this reason, he was leaving
and after looked from side to side and continued walking on the street. I did not see in which direction he left, and it is
here that I think I saw him, but it is not possible for someone to leave from this gate.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Or perhaps it is here from which the people or'perhaps I did not notice that there was another small gate.
DC1485'Oh, I am seeing it.
CT'I thought that there was only this gate.
DC1485'Thus,
here lies the confusion' to clarify things.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'It is not exactly the principal
gate because, as you noted, the ultimate apartment is where the McCann's were lodged.
CT'Well I did not
know. As you know I was on the top.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And so it is clear, it was not this apartment
from which I was looking.
DC1485'Your aunt's apartment is exactly on top'
CT'Yes, it
is directly on top.
DC1485'But it is two floors up'
CT'It is the last one, yes.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Well then, I was looking to the first gate at the end of the alley.
DC1485'Yes,
yes.
CT'It was there that I saw the person leave.
DC1485'Okay, and your direction was this
way, following the passageway or to the other direction towards the shrubs'
CT'No, it was towards the gate.
DC1485'In the inside.
CT'Yes, because humm... it must be, there are shrubs and there is no gate
there.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'As far as I know.
DC1485'Okay, yes.
CT'I
did not, I do not remember any gates. I believe that you have to go up and around, or to go through a different passage, or
something like this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I was never exactly in the area below but I do know that
it was this locale, humm... and I told my husband, I should tell him this. I had no idea that it was this was the apartment
they stayed. I only knew that which I saw and I was not wasting time. (inaudible)
DC1485'No, not in any way.
We only want to clarify everything.
CT'It is only that gate, that is the only one.
DC1485'Would
you mind making me an outline, please'
CT'Sure.
DC1485'If you would, if you make it, if
you could make the same one as this block here.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And after, please mark an X
in the location where you saw this man leaving.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And after where, where is the
gate in relation to the area from where he left.
CT'So, here is the block, okay, then the veranda of my aunt
and here on top.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I am looking forward, here in the bottom is a small gate and
here is the rua estreita. There is the rua estreita and there are shrubs here and here, the small gates, they are all like
this and you climb some steps or can enter from the right, I believe, to enter the apartment. Thus I am looking more or less
upwards to downwards and he left from here' the first gate you reach. I did not know of this one here, I did not know
of this one.
DC1485'Ah ah.
CT'What I know is that this is the gate and this is what I thought.
DC1485'And can you tell me if he came out of an apartment or was simply exiting the complex'
CT'He was leaving, he was exiting.
DC1485'From an apartment'
CT'I did not see him
leave an apartment. I only saw him leave from the gate.
DC1485'Did the gate give direct access to the apartment'
CT'But he was, yes... mmm... no, not at the last apartment.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I suppose
there is another apartment.
DC1485'Okay. I am seeing it.
CT' According to what I saw below,
it happened here, it could have been the last apartment.
DC1485'In your opinion, is it possible that he was
leaving his apartment, next to the last apartment'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'This, this is just
to say'
CT'Probably, oh it is right to say this because I would hate to state that he was; he may not have
been leaving because that past one was a different entrance.
Dc1485'Yes, okay.
CT'A different
entrance as a whole, the site closest to that row, the first door must have been next to the stairs.
DC1485'Yes
and after you saw him leave, what happened'
CT'Well, he opened the gate from inside and made so he did
not make any noise, I only'it was what made me feel strange about it. He did this all very quietly, as if... you know,
when a gate creeks, but he ensured that it did not make noise, it could have been (inaudible)
DC1485'With caution'
CT'Yes, simply ensuring that it did not bang, and I know some people who enter without banging the doorafter they
enter, so this was very cautious, very careful, and for this reason, only this reason, I called you.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It looked as though he was leaving, he closed it with both his hands, many times, closing it in silence
and cautiously with both hands and he looked lastly this way downwards, first to this side.
DC1485'So what
you are saying is that he looked first in your direction' He looked to you, but he was not positioned. This way
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Then he looked to the left.
CT'Oh I see.
DC1485'And after
he cautiously and slowly pushed it and afterwards looked to the right, and continued walking.
CT'And he'the
direction he took was to the street.
DC1485'He then went in this direction to the street, here, this street.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Along here in this direction towards the supermarket.
CT'Yes.
But I do not know if he went in that direction or in this direction.
DC1485'(inaudible)
CT'Walking
this way upwards and I then turned to my aunt and my husband.
DC1485'Then on your map, where do you believe
you saw him for the last time'
CT'At the exterior of the gate. He was closing it.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And moving there in an upwards direction.
DC1485'Yes, then, the last location at which
you saw him, he would have been, would it be possible that the last time you saw him, he was passing the apartments in direction
of the street'
CT'No, I only saw him walking and I did not see him on the rua estreita for when I turned
to speak with my family, he was, he was probably always at the the top of the street, and.
DC1485'Okay. I
am not here to put words in your mouth, or ideas in your head Carole, but it is possible that the last time you saw him he
was only passing through, as I have already indicated from the location of the McCann apartment. The last time you saw him
was passing by the McCann apartment then'
CT'Possibly, possibly, yes, I only know that I did not see him
turn to the right or the left. I did not look more after he passed the gate. I only know the direction in which he went. He
simply went in this direction, in that direction.
DC1485'Then Mrs. Tranmer, what happened first, did you lose
sight of him or did he disappear from your line if sight'
CT'No, I lost sight of him.
DC1485'So
you turned'
CT'I simply turned away.
DC1485'You turned'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'With your back to him'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Then before you turned, he was still
visible'
CT'He was still visible.
DC1485'And you as well.
CT'When I turned,
it was obvious he was heading somewhere. I only know that he was headed in that direction.
DC1485'Very good,
okay.
CT'Then, I turned like this and he disappeared.
DC1485'This is great, it is great, it
is clear, okay. I am going to now try to ask a serues of questions that the Portuguese police would like to ask you, okay'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'Perhaps you have already answered before but what I want you to do, it to respond
with as much detail possible. Good, the first questions is ' do you attest to you statement given to the British police
in May of two thousand'eight of may of 2007. Do you attest to the statement that was made on this day to the police, the
same statement that I showed you on the 8th of May'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'This statement is yours'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'I will only, it is not necessary to read, but I am going to show you as it is necessary
to confirm your statement and that it is your statement.
CT'It appears to be, yes.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, thank you, and the only anomaly is the incorrect date.
CT'The
date, the date is definitely wrong.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'We had arrived on the 28th or the 29th
of...
DC1485'April.
CT'April, yes. It was in April and not in May.
DC1485'Well,
I am going to help you refresh your memory anew and back to when this individual appeared.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'You have already stated that is was on Thursday because this was the day you visited your aunt.
CT'Mmm,
mmm.
DC1485'And at what time, I need to come to a definitive time with the hours.
CT'Okay,
mmm, mmm.
DC1485'What do you think, it was not after the... and it was not before the'
CT'No
it was not late.
DC1485'I assume that I was there, I was there between...we were there around 11, 10 or 11.
We took my aunt, we must have left around 11h30, a quarter to noon, and in order to go to the restaurant. Now it may have
been a bit early. We had a coffee before we left and really strange to me is the feeling that it could have happened then'I
feel that it was when we returned and were drinking coffee.
DC1485'Then you mentioned previously, you said
before that you left around 6h30.
CT'Yes, we left.
DC1485'So, let us recap.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'How much time.
CT'We were there around, we returned from lunch around 3h00 or 3h30, and
we were there from 3h30 until 6h30. I know that it was 6h30.
DC1485'Then for a total of three hours, and there
were (inaudible) for three hours, yes'
CT'It was minimum of three hours, yes, because we were talking and
I had the sensation that we were longer than in the morning, and therefore, it was in these three hours when I saw him and
was looking from the veranda. I know that it will look horrible because it will only confuse everyone, but if I were to state
that it occurred during the morning. I am still not sure it was the morning or the afternoon. I only know that we were together
on the terrace.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But the truth is that I cannot. I am trying my hardest to tell
you if it was morning or evening.
DC1485'Good, you left around 8h30, sorry, 6h30.
CT'Yes,
we left.
DC1485'What time before this did you see the individual'
CT'It must have happened,
I do not want to guess, I cannot...it was during the time we were on the terrace, between three and three-thirty until six,
when we returned to the apartment, five-thirty or six because it was cooling down, thus, it was in the afternoon, and I hate
to do this, excuse me but it was on'
DC1485'It does not matter that you are trying to guess, it does not
matter that you guess.
CT'If it was in the afternoon, somewhere three, three-thirty and five-thirty, because
the sun was going down and it was getting colder.
DC1485'Well.
CT'Well, I am certain that
we were on the terrace between 3:00/3:30 until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon.
DC1485'Well, we have already been
at this for one hour and have made good progress. We are moving along very well. It is very difficult.
CT'Yes
it is.
DC1483'I know.
DC1485'You were there two hours.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'3:30
to 5:30.
CT'Yes and if this did occur in the morning, okay, it would be between'we would have gotten there
around 11, 10:30 or 11 and left around 11-ish, 11:45.
DC1485'To go to the restaurant.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, I think I am happy that you saw this individual in the afternoon.
CT'Yes, I,
I have the feeling that it was in the afternoon.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And it is not just because
I say so but, because we had spent more time relaxing; they were talking, and we had already eaten lunch and were sitting
and relaxing and well, I am nearly certain. But as you know there was that period in the morning.
DC1485'Did
anyone visit your apartment'
CT'When we were there' No, no.
DC1485'No, okay.
CT'I am sorry that'
DC1485'So our window is between'
CT'3, 3:30.
DC1485'3:30.
CT'Until 5:30.
DC1485'And if I were to give you hints, because you could ask yourself this,
was it at the beginning of your stay, close to 3:30'
CT'Definitive at the beginning because there was a
lot of light, yes.
DC1485'More, more than 5:30'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Well
think, think about the possibility of 3:30, would you say 4:30'
CT'4:30, yes.
DC1485'Well,
given the window of between 3:30 and 4:30'
CT'Yes. I suppose so. It is only a guess.
DC1485'Yes,
it is great, yes, yes.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me that you were on your aunt's
terrace'
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'Okay, and what is there on the terrace'
CT'Well,
there is a table, a sun umbrella, some chairs and potted plants and very little else; a part of the terrace is bigger than
the other with the end part longer, more or less. The part where we sat was covered and has a big enough space for six people
to sit, but I, I know that I was standing on the veranda when I looked down. I was not looking in this way, I was only snooping
to see what was going on below. It was simply a look as follows, for this reason, I was looking below and was not properly'I
cannot, I could not see very well.
DC1485'Then it was not a specific look below, we will call it a glance.
CT'Yes, yes, it is very difficult to see below. One only had a general view.
DC1485'Then was
it necessary to look more furtively'
CT'No.
DC1485'Okay, your path was like this, when you
were in the apartment and walked out, can you see the direction on the terrace.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'How
much time to get there from you room'
CT'Hum... we can there with a few steps.
DC1485'Sorry'
CT'So, it is visible if we are seated on''
DC1485'From the door or from where'
CT'From, humm... the door no because he was looking more from the side.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'So
leaving the apartment one must get up but if one is seated on the terrace.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'And
if sitting next to the terrace wall.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Can you see,
is it possible for people to pass through the top and below'
CT'You can see this outside.
DC1485'Absolutely,
yes.
CT'Absolutely, yes.
DC1485'Very good, sure.
CT'People would come and go.
DC1485'I can see.
CT'So you can see what is happening at the top of and at the bottom of the
street.
DC1485'Okay. To jog your memory to remember the topic of conversation, I mean, you confirmed that
the individual called your attention but after that you turned to speak with your husband. Can you remember what you said
to your husband'
CT'Well, there are always talking about the European Union, for this reason, they always
have discussions about who is a member of the European Union and who is leading; these two talk a lot about politics and speak,
speak and after I turned to get into the conversation as well.
CT'Because they always have open discussions,
nice discussions but ...
DC1485'Nothing that comes to memory'
CT'Well, you know'he
works, he is contracted by the European Union and is always saying that when he leaves working for them, he has a big book
to write, yes'
DC1485'Was this individual accompanied by anyone'
CT'No, he was alone.
DC1485'Okay, the next thing is the description, this will be difficult for you, I know, but try and remember
as much as possible even if they are details that may appear... ohh. Assume that I know nothing.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC14850'Okay'
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Presuppose that I have just entered this investigation,
that I do not know about your previous statement; that I know nothing about this individual.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Where should we start.
CT'At the head.
DC1485'the head.
CT'Because
it was what I saw first.
DC1485'yes.
CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short,
not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven.
Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid
colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the
trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he
was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of
average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that
he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian. Even though I was
looking upwards, he had big eyes, there is nothing else. He did not have tattoos, nothing like this, humm'a person of
common appearance, it was his furtiveness that called my attention, humm, no, I can't'
DC1485'Could
you give him an age'
CT'Yes, I believe so, I would say that he was between, oh he was not old, 30 to 35,
I don't believe that he was older than this.
DC1485'And his aspect'
CT'It was clear,
he was light-skinned, he had no freckles, he was not sunburned, he was not dark, nor bronzed from the sun, he was a light
colour, not white, white but you know'humm..he was not one who was exposed to the sun.
DC1485'And when
he walked, did he have any particular walk or limp'
CT'No, I never really noticed his gait as I only saw
him leave the gate. He did not appear incapacitated, hum' he was merely ordinary looking, I did not really look at his
walk.
DC1485'You told me he did not have tattoos; was he wearing any jewellery'
CT'No,
I did not see any jewellery, no, no he did not have necklaces or rings and as far as I could tell, he did not have earrings.
DC1485'And his T-shirt, you spoke to me about his T-shirt, did it have an inscription'
CT'No,
it was a common shirt, without inscriptions, it was light blue in colour, or grey, it could have been grey, mmm.
DC1485'And the T-shirt, did it have buttons or was it simply something that went up to the neck'
CT'No,
it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.
DC1485'Yes,
and was it loose-fitting'
CT'No it was not snug, it was not loose, it was comfortable.
DC1485'Did
it fit him loosely'
CT'It was big but not by much.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It was
simply common, the type of T-shirt one wears on Saturday.
DC1485'Yes, yes.
CT'With inscriptions
or anything in general, mmm.
DC'And he was well-shaven'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'Yes
without a beard or did you notice anything else'
CT'No, nothing from what I remember, because he was very
blonde.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But if he had a beard, I would have seen it.
DC1485'Spectacles'
CT'No, he did not have sunglasses, nor did he wear spectacles.
DC1485'He did not use sunglasses'
CT'No.
DC1485'Okay, and for how long did you think you saw him'
CT'Well, humm...
the time it takes to leave, shut the gate, look to the side, look to that side, a few seconds because he did not take very
long to do this, I would say that it was for a minute or something like that.
DC1485'And I know that you pointed
to the map, as you know, that you were on the third floor and he was here, this is, rua estreita, as you revelead'
CT'No, no it appears, humm... it is simply long, because the apartments on the first level jut out a bit, the
veranda belongs to my aunt.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Therefore, when I say that I am looking below, it
is only really looking below...
DC1485'And how, what is your opinion; are you good at measuring distances'
CT'If am am good in measuring distances, recollecting faces, mmm'very good. Are you talking measurements in
metres, yards or in feet'
DC1485'Humm, in feet.
DC1485'Please continue.
CT'From
where, where I stood'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Okay, I would then say, humm, close to the roof.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'It would be the measurement of one double-decker bus which, which is the measurement
of a double-decker bus.
DC1485'You refer to the top of the double-decker, the double-decker until the end'
CT'Yes, yes.
DC1485'I though you said that you were capable of being precise.
CT'Well,
it is difficult, isn't it'
DC1485'Have you looked here to outside'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Is it roughly the same height'
CT'Humm, yes, but two, two floors up.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Two floors and a bit upwards.
DC1485'Are the apartments have high ceilings or low-ceilings'
CT'Humm, no... they are higher than this.
DC1485'They are higher than this.
CT'Yes,
yes.
DC1485'Or it could be, we are speaking, if I told you 30 metres, twenty meters, thirty metres, 40 metres,
which do uou think it would be'
DC1485'Feet and inches
CT'Ahh... feet, if I told you, then,
I would from top to bottom it was about' I don't know, 20 feet.
DC1485'Yes, because there we were
also on the top of a hill.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus 20, 30 feet for sure, I would that it was around
this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Because we were also on a hill. But on the rua estreita I don't think
there is a relief.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Mmm.
DC1485'And the temperature, you told
me that the temperature was cold but it was sunny on this day or were you covered.
CT'It was sunny, but...
humm... it cooled down at night, hummm, I believe it was sunny, mmm.
DC1485'It seems to me that you would recognise
this individual were you to see him again'
CT'Yes, I would recognize him. Don't ask me why but I know
that I would.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me, when we were speaking of his behaviour, you told me that he left
and shut the gate very slowly after himself, that he had to turn. With both his hands.
CT'With both hands.
DC1485'He turned and pulled the gate, he pulled or pushed the gate closed'
CT'Humm...
he pulled it.
DC1485'Because it opens from the inside'
CT'It opens from the inside.
DC1485'Yes, then when you saw him leave, he had to pull the gate in his direction.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Okay, and you told me that he was doing this stealthily, what do you mean by stealthily'
CT'Stealth, humm... someone who would draw my attention, you know, the normal way of entering and exiting a gate, one
opens the gate and just leaves, but he did this as though he wanted to make the minimum amount of noise, that is stealthily,
and as if, he did not want anyone to know that he was coming or going.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This
was very, very unusual and it was this that stayed in my memory.
DC1485'This was the photo-sketch that you
reproduced'
CT'No, he did not use spectacles, but he did have this type of hair.
DC1485'Yes,
I was intrigued that the reason for his sunglasses.
CT'He did not have sunglasses, he did not use spectacles
and his mouth was not like this, and his nose was not like this, it is not the same person.
DC1485'Then you
are telling me that this is not the photo-fit that you made'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'Because he has glasses, he did not use glasses.
Dc1485'No, but the hair is the same'
CT'The hair is right. More or less.
DC1485'I know that the image is not very good.
CT'And
it appears that he has something on his chin that he did not have, humm, but the format is similar, he certainly did not use
glasses, and his mouth was different.
DC1485'Okay, but the top of his...
CT'The top, his head
is...
DC1485'The same.
CT'Yes.
DC1485'The format of the face is the same, the
format of the mouth is the same'
CT'Well, he had a long face.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Yes,
this, this you know.
DC1485'But this is not it, this is not your photo-sketch.
CT'No, certainly
it is not.
DC1485'No, it is not... okay. And the name Tasmin.
CT'Is this what they sent'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This I made'
DC1485'Well, do you remember the name of the
person who made the photo with you'
CT'No, a young person, humm...
DCc1485'Male'
CT'Yes, male, a young man, hummm.
DC1485'Tasmin, does that have any significance for you'
CT'No.
DC1485'No.
CT'From Reading.
DC1485'Yes, from Reading.
CT'I signed something, he had a CD and did everything on computer.
DC1485'Okay, sure.
CT'But
this, this is not like the one he did.
DC1485'Well, there must be some confusion. I would like to finally
ask you regarding your aunt, Pamela FENN.
CT'Pamela FENN, mmm
DC1485'Speak to me about her.
CT'Humm, of what' Her age or her type of lifestyle'
DC1485'Yes... where she used to
live, you told me that she moved there in 2003'
CT'No, no ,no, she moved there around a good 20 or 30
years ago.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Together, my aunt and uncle used to live in Stratfield Saye.
DC1485'Where'
CT'Stratfield Saye which is in Berkshire, the border with Surrey and when they
sold the house they moved to Portugal. He designed and constructed a villa, not exactly in Lagos, but in the immediate vicinity.
They bought the land and lived there happily for many years until he got ill with Alzheimer and for the last 10 years, it
was she who took care of him with the exception of the last 18 months when he spent his time in a facility. When he died,
she bought this apartment, and she lives their practically alone and the family, as you know, we visit her with frequency
and she (sorry) goes many times to the U.K. She has three children, all married who also have children. She therefore has
grandchildren, but she likes Portugal, she likes the climate, she is happy there, she has friends, and humm... she would never
return here unless she had no choice (inaudible), there is not more to add.
DC1485--So she still has family in
England'
CT'Oh yes, the has three married children and many grandchildren.
DC1485'Where
do they live'
CT'They'one lives in Sandhurst, he is a colonel and has been stationed in Belgrade for
about 4 years, the other lives in Kent and owns a bar, and the other lives in London and is the manager of a marketing business.
All of them, the one in Kent has three children, and the other has one child and they, N***is in Camberley and had two children.
She had grandchildren. After this is me, I am her nieces and my sister, J*** lives in Guildford. For this reason we are spread
out and she comes to spend the holidays and Christmas.
DC1485'Is there anybody in the family called (inaudible),
any younger member called FENN'
CT'Yes, all of them. All of them are called FENN. They are all men, for
this reason they are all FENN.
DC1485'They are all FENN.
CT'The whole family is called FENN.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'A series of FENN, yes
DC1485'And girls'
CT'No,
she does not have girls.
DC1485'So there are no girls with the name FENN.
CT'Only by marriage.
DC1485'And the children.
CT'They are all FENNs.
DC1485'They are all FEN'S.
What are their names'
CT'Well, there is'H*** and C**** FENN, they are married and have ***** and C*****
who lives in Camberley in Sandhurst which is the military base, after there is S***** FENN and his wife N**** who have a daughter
named M*****, for this reason, they are all FENNs. After this is I**** FENN who has an older son, no two boys... I am becoming
confused, two daughters who are all FENNs and she will have a great-granddaughter this month, sorry, next month.
DC1485'A big family.
CT'Yes, a big family, humm... and her husband, my uncle's family was from Australia,
but I believe that this is... mmm
DC1485'Okay. Finally Carole, I would like to go over with you the photos
you brought with you, which you showed to me before the interview.
CT'Mmm, mmm
DC1485'Please
clarify for me, when these were taken, who took it, and...'
CT'Hum... okay, my husband and aunt hate taking
photographs, for this reason he must have taken these, I know that they were taken on Sunday, a lovely sunny day where we
were seated, as was usual, on the terrace. There are a number of people there.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'There
is the pool, there is the overhang, which is not really an overhand but a wall.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'A
wall with plants from a distance; like a passageway on the pavement which runs until the building.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'This is similar to what one can see now, and the reception area with the roof.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And the people between I believe are many who work at the Ocean Club and who also live in the surrounding
areas, also in the locale.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'That is it.
DC1485'If we select
this photograph, I will show it to you, okay'
CT'This must be one of the better ones, If I may say so.
DC1485'This one shows you,
CT'This, this shows me looking down being curious, but this is not
of the other apartment.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But below there is, humm...the terrace of the other
apartment.
DC1485'Oh, that one... hummm. Where the McCanns stayed.
CT'I did not know, but it
must have been, they had a type of patio below, but the one I was looking at, humm... was where the small gate was located
which is almost to that side.
DC1485'That is the gate where you saw the individual.
CT'Mmm,
mmm
DC1485'Where you stood'
CT'Where I stood.
DC1485'I will (inaudible)
see something. Image 50590 okay, that I what I will call it.
CT'Ah ah.
DC1485'Image 0590 is
one of your pictures.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And you are looking below.
CT'And
I am looking below.
CT'Mmm, mmm.
DC1485'And tell me where is the gate, in realtion ot the rest.
CT'Well, the gate is slightly more towards the front, 69 centimetres towards the front.
DC1485'To
your right.
CT'To my right.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Right below where the McCanns stayed
there is a small patio.
CT'Yes.
CT'But I did not see if they had a gate themselves.
CT'Okay. And after there is a small apartment below that has a small terrace and was probably there I was snooping.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Mmmm.
DC1485'At what time of the day do you think this photograph
was taken'
CT'Well, it was... it must have happened in the morning because it was taken on Sunday.
DC1485'It was taken on Sunday'
CT'Yes, because the sun was out, humm'around mid-day, I
would say it was around noon.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Mmm
DC1485'This is good.
CT'This is all I remember.
DC1485'I will make copies of these photographs, later, after completing your
statement.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'And I have this as your proof and evidence.
CT'You
can have these because, humm... they are on CD, and if they can help'
DC1485'Right, okay.
CT'You
can have them.
DC1485'I will see what I (inaudible) can do with them.
CT'yes, okay.
DC1485'Okay, I will get up for two minutes and ask my colleague if any fact has escaped me.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Right.
CT'Yes, I will have some water.
DC MESSIAH leaves the interview room.
DC MESSIAH returns to the interview room.
DC1485'Hello, I have returned. I apologise for the length
of my absence (inaudible), my colleague was trying to get a better quality photograph copy, the one I showed him was very,
very light, wasn't it'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'Does this bring back memories'
CT'Good,
the one I saw was on computer...
DC1485'Yes.
CT'And... hum, with the glasses... he did not
wear sunglasses.
DC1485'No, but if you could imagine him without sunglasses, is it very difficult'
CT'Yes, hum... I know that I have had some difficulty with the ears as well, but... humm, I think so.
DC1485'This was made by another witness, who affirms having seen a man who corresponds to his description but...
CT'The one thing is that I saw him from an angle.
DC1485'From below.
CT'From below,
his mouth was more'hum'very delineated, it was not'in this one it appeared more'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'But, hum... the head looks good.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Humm, but the glasses and
I do not know about the nose, it was more'mmm'but we all come from different places.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'He did not have this in his chin.
DC1485'No.
CT'And he had a long face.
DC1485'Longer than this one'
CT'Yes, although I saw him from above, I have (inaudible) because
I very much like this photograph.
DC1485'Oh right.
CT'For this reason, I am very good at this.
But not in measurements (inaudible)'facial recognition, hummm.
DC1485'Okay, but this one.
CT'Yes,
the head, the cut of the hair, the hair line was very similar, mmm... but the individual made him on CD, humm.
DC1485'What
did he do'
CT'He, well, he assigned a document to confirm that I was correct but it was all on computer
and'humm'he took it back to Reading.
DC1485'He was from Reading'
CT'He worked
for the Reading Police, so I assumed he was legitimate.
DC1485'Did he leave a card or another contact'
CT'Humm...
DC1485'Is the name recognisable'
CT'No, but it was all noted
by the Police in Reading.
DC1485'Where did they go'
CT'They, they went to my office.
DC1485'They went to your office'
CT'Yes.
DC1485'How many of them were there'
CT'Only one, with a laptop.
DC1485'I am not suggesting that he, he'
CT'I
was going to say that, I hope he was legitimate, this was a long time ago.
DC1485'Yes, I am not suggesting
this, simply, I want you to help me find him.
CT'I, I do not remember his name, humm.
DC1485'You
told me that he was young'
CT'Yes, a young person.
DC1485'He was in his youth'
CT'Well, a computer genious, but not one of those weird looking ones, you know'hum, very much younger'humm,
he was around 25 or something.
Dc1485'Okay.
CT'Dark hair, hum'short, yes, I remember that
he was very short, humm'and was only'
DC1485'You have a fantastic memory, did you know that'
CT' (laughs) Perhaps this has something to do with my past, because I was working, hummm'my other organisation
was, hummm'called Reading because it was all organized by them.
DC1485'Good, I will ask you to contact
us first, unless you have a preference'
CT'I can check in my agenda when I get home.
DC1485'And
call me after or'
DC1485'I keep all my appointments and if there is anything, because when I was working,
I was better organised compared to when I do nothing.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'Perhaps there is something
about his name.
DC1485'Because he must have said his name and the visit and you may have made a note in your
agenda.
CT'I would have noted it as I had to also book the room.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'I
remember this, yes.
DC1485'Okay. Some questions that were asked of me need clarification, first you told me
everything that you saw when he was at the gate. In what direction he was looking when he exited; when he was preparing to
leave; when he began walking through the gate and consequently, already outside the gate'
CT'Well, he
was looking in the direction opposite to me.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Thus, he must have... I did not
look, I only saw him leave via the gate, turn and here he did this stealthily, slowly, at opening the gate,. It was the manner
in which he opened it. He did not look to where I was, nor did he see me.
Dc1485'Good.
CT'And...
humm, I was more or less with my back turned towards him, and he used two hands to do this, which was strange, and after looked
in that direction, to the left, and left as I turned away.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'How much time'how
much time did he look to the left'
CT'It was for a bit, very intentional.
DC1485'Like
he was stopping to look'
CT'Yes, intentially to check to see something, you know, and after looking from
one side to the other before leaving; this is what called my attention.
DC1485'Did someone else see him'
CT'No because my husband and aunt were seated, but below the terrace wall, so that they did not see anything.
DC1485'Okay.
CT'I would say that has they not been intently conversing regarding this and that...
DC1485'You would not have stayed there and'
CT'I would have, I would have called their attention
and asked them what they thought of it.
DC1485'Okay. From what I can tell, this is the end of the interview.
CT'Okay.
DC1485'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to add, given that eleven months
have passed when you first spoke of this'
CT'Not really, there is only the issue of what I have spoken
about and which had to do with the apartment. I did not know that it was the apartment below ours and, humm'I did not
know that they were staying in that apartment; I was focused on the gate. I had no idea.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'Except in the Sunday papers, as we have seen.
DC1485' Had you seen anyone prior, anyone at all, leaving
by that gate before'
CT'Hummm... no, not while we were visiting, no.
DC1485'And do you
remember if it was occupied at that time'
CT'I cannot be sure, I do not know if anyone was there because
it was very early in the season, and there were some guests staying in apartments above the ground floor.
DC1485'Yes.
DC1485'Was there anyone there, who perhaps put out clothing'
CT'Yes.
CT'There
were some, but that small gate...it also gives access to the apartments above.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'For
this reason, I do not know...
DC1485'Okay.
CT'As you know, I did not see anyone leave or enter.
DC1485'Do you know if your aunt knew of anyone staying as a guest, or mentioned that someone was staying there'
CT'She probably knew, but she does not talk much about this.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'So
this'humm.
DC1485'Yes.
CT'She knows some people from the Resident's Association but
I cannot guarantee that she knew who was staying there. She is pretty reserved or at least tries to be, but she does know
the majority of the members of the Resident's Association and when there is a meeting'for this reason perhaps she
knew that an apartment would be occupied. Remembering this after so much time has passed'
DC1485'Yes.
CT'She is very astute, you know.
DC1485'Very good. Is there anything else you would like to
add'
CT'No.
DC1485'She was given the opportunity to clarify. Right, it is 11h10. This interview
has ended/
Signature:
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