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Various Transcripts

This page includes various transcripts/interviews

Kate and Gerry in Paris Match magazine
Kate and Gerry interviewed by Paris Match magazine, see below (click to enlarge)

 
Transcript of Today programme, 07 May 2007
 
Transcript of John Humphries interview with Professor Carolyn Hamilton of the Children's Legal Centre BBC Radio 4 Today 
 
0845 Is it safe to leave little children alone? We speak to professor Carolyn Hamilton of the Children's Legal Centre about the circumstances surrounding the abduction of Madeleine McCann.
 
07 May 2007
Thanks to Kate for transcript

 

John Humphries: I suppose all parents have three reactions to what has happened in the Algarve. The first obviously is to pray that the little girl will be returned safe and well to her parents. The second is deep sympathy for the parents of little Madeleine McCann, 4 days after she disappeared. The third is to ask would we have left a child in the same circumstances. Professor Carolyn Hamilton is the Head of the Children's Legal Centre a charity concerned with law and policy in this area. Professor Hamilton, what does the law say, is there a legal minimum age at which we can leave children?

 

Carolyn Hamilton: There isn't any minimum age in law. It's very much based on outcomes. It's based on 'are you placing a child at risk if you leave the child alone'. So parents have to weigh up all the factors and decide, is it safe to leave my child alone for a period of time. So for instance if you left a child alone for four hours, a small child, probably we would say 'no that's not'. But in the case of these parents, the children were asleep. We presume perhaps they were good sleepers they popped back every half an hour. The door was locked. The shutters were down on the windows.

 

JH: They weren't very far away.

 

CH:  They weren't very far away, at all. One would probably say that's a reasonable choice to take, that's a reasonable risk. There are those who say you should never leave your child alone for a minute, but perhaps that's not truly practical for any of us. And I think it also has to be remembered that sometimes children are abducted when the parents are in the house. That you can't sit in the room with the child all day and all night. But that's a very difficult decision to take, whether to leave a child alone or not.

 

JH: Well probably particularly on holiday I suppose in a way because you're in a hotel you think, you know, can we leave them in the room while we nip down to the restaurant for a couple of hours and I suppose most people would say that they would do that, depending obviously on the age of the child and whether they are good sleepers and all that. But it is an incredibly difficult decision to take all the time isn't it.

 

CH: It is a difficult decision to take but even babysitting services aren't really in the room with the child. It is difficult and I think it's fair to say that most people would leave their children alone for very short periods of time in those circumstances. It's not an unreasonable decision to take. It's just terribly unfortunate.

 

JH: But the problem is I suppose that in the end if you do it and something goes wrong then action can be taken against you.

 

CH: Yes, if you could be shown to have neglected the child or abandoned the child, yes, you could be committing a criminal offence and what the court would look at is all the factors. What did you do to make sure that child was safe, because that's what they really looking at. Was the child safe when you went out for a few minutes?

 

JH: Did you do all the reasonable things?

 

CH: Did you take every precaution that was reasonable? It's interesting that we have a website and 'Home Alone: Leaving Children On Their Own' is our most downloaded piece of information. It's what people want to know all the time. And it is a very unclear situation. 

 

JH: Well, I've no doubt we'll get lots of emails about that and again if people want to join in the conversation on that on the message board that's available at 9 o'clock. Professor Hamilton. Thank you very much. 

 

Listen on RealPlayer (starts at 19:10)

 

*

 

Professor Carolyn Hamilton Childrens Legal Centre

 

Professor Carolyn Hamilton is the Director of The Children's Legal Centre, a position she has held since 1995. She is a well known child rights lawyer, who has published widely on issues of children's rights and child law. Professor Hamilton is the Senior Legal Adviser for the Children's Commissioner in England and the Child and Family Commissioner for the Legal Services Commission. She has acted as a consultant to UNICEF on child protection and juvenile justice in many countries, including in Georgia, Palestine, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan and Kosovo and to the UN Crime Prevention Branch on juvenile justice, working with the Ad-Hoc Expert Group on the Application of United Nations Standards and Norms. From 2001-2003, Professor Hamilton was appointed as Consultant on Juvenile Justice to the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights.

 

*

 

Would you leave your child alone? Timesonline

 

Madeleine McCann's parents checked on her every half-hour while she slept in her room at an Algarve resort – yet still she was abducted. What is the law in relation to leaving children alone? Professor Carolyn Hamilton offers her legal opinion and two Times writers give their own experiences as mothers

 

Professor Carolyn Hamilton

May 9, 2007

 

Scenario 1: You have three children under 5. You go shopping at the supermarket for 20 minutes, leaving them asleep in their car seats with the doors unlocked to avoid their movements triggering the car alarm.

 

This scenario is not advisable. It is an offence under section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to neglect or abandon a child under the age of 16 for whom a parent or carer has responsibility, but the law gives no detail of what amounts to neglect or abandonment. Prosecution and/or conviction depend largely on the circumstances. The punishment can range from a fine to ten years' imprisonment.

 

The court is to likely to take into account the age and maturity of the child, for how long he or she was left alone and the arrangements to ensure his or her safety. Here, the children might get out of the car and wander on to the road – or anybody could remove a child from the car.

 

If the car doors were locked the children might be safer, but then what might happen if the children became very distressed in an enclosed space? Technically, children should not be left alone like that until they are 16. Five minutes might be acceptable in a locked car; 20 minutes is too long.

 

Scenario 2: You have 18-month old twins. You put them down for their afternoon nap in their cots, then dash down the road to get a pint of milk for a cup of tea. You are gone for less than ten minutes.

 

In this scenario, if the twins were asleep in cots and couldn't get out, a parent might reasonably decide to leave them. If they were able to walk about – for instance, leaving a child of 6 awake and alone at home for ten minutes – it would be more problematic. You would need to worry not only about intruders but also about accidents; the possibility of a child burning some toast, for example, and starting a fire.

 

For a child of about 12 and above, it would depend largely on his or her maturity and factors such as whether he or she had been left at home alone before. Obviously it would be much better to have neighbours who could check up, and doors should be locked. I would never recommend leaving a child of any age for very long, but for children in cots, ten minutes is probably safe enough. I wouldn't say this situation is desirable but it's better than scenarios 1 and 3.

 

Scenario 3:You have three children aged 10, 8 and 6. You go out for dinner, leaving them in bed at home. You tell the eldest to ring you on your mobile if there are any problems.

 

This would be a real matter for concern. If the parents were out for dinner, they might easily be gone for a few hours. Even if this was for lunch and not for dinner (so in the middle of the day) it would still be highly undesirable.

 

If they were very close by and checking on the children often, the situation would be different – but leaving three children of that age alone for several hours would still be extremely unadvisable, as the potential risks are simply too great unless you can come back and check on them often.

 

Even if the eldest child could be relied on to use the phone, if the parent could not get back within 15 minutes there is a possibility that he or she might be charged with abandonment.

 

If a neighbour was there in case of emergency it would certainly be better, but because of the length of time involved it would still be very ill-advised.

 

Scenario 4:You go out for dinner in a hotel complex on holiday abroad, leaving a child aged 3 and twins aged 18 months in a locked room. You return to check on them every half hour.

 

If the parents have taken all the risks into account and decided that it is safe to leave the children, this would probably be reasonable. If the children were awake or a bit older and able to wander around, or potentially even to open the door to an intruder, perhaps not. But asleep, with the door locked and people constantly checking up on them, it is likely to be reasonable.

 

You should be checking on them very regularly. I don't think it's any less safe in Continental Europe than it is here. Leaving children alone in this manner is not desirable, but parents have to balance the demands of life and will probably have to consider such issues regularly.

 

A parent needs to ensure that children are safe if they are left alone. Leaving them for a short while, asleep, in a locked room with regular checks is acceptable. Leaving them for two hours, or with unlocked doors, is not.

 

MARY ANN SIEGHART: Your children are 20 times more likely to be killed by lightning than to be abducted by a stranger. You are much more likely to get five out of six numbers right in the National Lottery. Yet "It could be you" is the dread thought that all we parents have had since hearing the news that a three-year-old girl had been snatched from her hotel room in an Algarve resort.

 

How should we react? How protective should we be? The least we can do is try to match our behaviour towards our children with the real – rather than the imagined – risks that they face.

 

If we were rational, we would make much more fuss about them playing in the park and sheltering under a tree during a storm than talking to strangers. If we were rational, we would be more worried about them dying from a wasp, bee or hornet sting than from a paedophile murder. And we wouldn't let them anywhere near a bicycle.

 

In our family, we have always been pretty robust about children's safety. Our general view is that oversheltering does them no favours.

 

If they never learn to cross the road as a child, they are more likely to be run over as a teenager. If we don't teach them to be streetwise, they won't cope when – and there has to be a when – they are out on their own. For dependent children have to grow up into independent adults. There is no way of avoiding that. The best we can do is to prepare them for independent living. And that means gradually increasing the amount of freedom and responsibility that we give them.

 

When our elder daughter was 5, we let her walk round the block to the sweet shop. It didn't involve crossing any roads, and she knew not to walk into the street or to get into a car with a stranger.

 

Unbeknown to her, my husband followed her the first few times at a distance. She was fine, and was generally rewarded with a free sweetie from the kindly shop owner, which allowed her to learn that other adults outside the family could be trusted to keep an eye on her, too.

 

By the time our children were 9 and 7 we were letting them go for walks and bike rides (wearing cycle helmets) together in the countryside. They learnt to rely on each other and to take note of their surroundings rather than following a parent blindly.

 

At 11, our elder daughter was walking to school and back, a mile each way, every day. And last Friday our younger daughter, now 13, made it from Winchester to Norwich on her own, a journey involving four trains and a crossing of London. All this – we hope – will encourage self-confidence and self-reliance.

 

You have to make them aware of the risks and teach them how to deal with them. Both our daughters have been on a self-defence course but, equally, neither is shy of asking a friendly-looking adult (ideally a woman) for help if necessary.

 

They know that abductions happen but they also understand that the reason why the occasional child-snatching fills so many acres of newsprint is precisely because it is so very, very rare.

 

Of course we parents all worry about our children. Yet childhood is the safest part of a person’s life and is becoming ever safer. You are least likely to be murdered between the ages of 5 and 16, and if you are, the killer is likely to be someone you know – possibly even your parent.

 

What is more, child deaths from any cause in this country have more than halved in the past 25 years.

 

The world isn't getting more dangerous for them. It's just that parents are getting more neurotic.

 

SARAH VINE: I am living proof that it is perfectly safe to leave your children at home alone. From a relatively young age (7 or 8, if memory serves), my parents used to leave my brother and me in the house at night while they popped out for a bite to eat. No harm ever came to us, principally because they always took precautions to make sure that we were fundamentally safe (locked doors and windows, watchful neighbours, etc), but also because, thanks to their trust, I was a sensible little girl.

 

You might have thought, then, that I would be similarly disposed towards my children. But no. It anything I am even more neurotic than most about leaving them alone. In the evenings, when they are asleep upstairs, I will not even go as far as the bottom of the garden (where I have my home office) for fear that something might happen while I am out of earshot. If I fill up the car with petrol with them in the back, I will drive to the front of the forecourt to pay, just so that I can keep an eye on them.

 

Ridiculous behaviour, of course, but I cannot seem to help myself. In my defence, both my children are under 4: they are small, trusting and extremely accident-prone. Only the other day I caught my daughter sitting in her Wendy house with a plastic bag "hat" on her head – this despite the fact that all plastic bags in our house are meticulously knotted and put away safely.

 

But there are other reasons. First, I am older than my parents were when they had me – much older. And the older you get, the more risk-averse you become: too many scare stories, too many chilling news reports (and, it has to be said, a few nasty experiences of my own). They were 21 when they had me: barely out of nappies themselves. I was 36 when I had my daughter: an entirely different proposition. If life teaches you anything, it is that not everybody is as good as they ought to be. I know we are all supposed to rail against our risk-averse society, but when it comes to your children, it's hard.

 

There is another factor, too. Being left alone in the house was scary. I never let on to my parents how scary, as I didn't want to disappoint them. But I was pretty terrified. I would lie in bed, wide awake, listening to the strange noises of the night, analysing every squeak and rustle, until I heard the welcome crunch of their car's tyres on the driveway – at which point I would finally succumb to sleep.

 

So I agree: we should not cocoon our children. But nor, by the same token, should we assume that the process of growing up is always an easy one.

 
'We'll never stop blaming ourselves', 25 May 2007
 
'We'll never stop blaming ourselves' Sky News
 
Updated:18:17, Friday May 25, 2007
 
Gerry and Kate McCann, the parents of missing Madeleine, have spoken to Sky News' Ian Woods about the night she was taken and the support they have received three weeks after she was snatched in Portugal.
 
Here is the full transcript of the interview.
 
IAN WOODS (IW): Gerry and Kate thanks very much for talking to us. I'd like to begin by taking you back to the events of May 3 on that evening. Tell us how you discovered how Madeleine had gone.

KATE McCANN (KM): As I think people are aware, we were checking regularly on the children and it was during one of my checks that I discovered she had gone. I can't really go into any details about that. I'm sure any parent will realise how that felt.

IW: Did the panic set in immediately?

KM: Yeah (whisper), very much.

IW: This is a resort that offers childcare facilities, babysitting facilities. Why then, were the three young children left alone at the apartment while you were having a meal?

GERRY McCANN (GM): I think if you know the location here which you've seen, what we did I think, and we've been assured by the thousands of people who've either done exactly the same or say they would have done the same, and for us, it wasn't very much different to having dinner in your garden, in the proximity of the location. I think it's fair to say that you know the guilt that we feel having not been there at that moment irrespective of whether we had been in our bedroom or not will never leave us.

IW: Do you blame yourselves regularly?

KM: Certainly in the first few days. I think the guilt was, was very difficult. But I think as time goes on, erm, you feel stronger and we felt very supported from that point of view.

IW: Is there a lesson, do you feel, to other parents?

GM: I think that's a very difficult thing to say because if you look at it, and we try to rationalise things in our head, ultimately what is done is done and we continually look forward. We've tried to put it into some sort of perspective for ourselves. We're in a very safe resort. If you think about the millions and millions of British families who go to the Mediterranean each year, really the changes of this happening are in the order of a hundred million to one.

KM: I think at worst we were naïve. I mean we're very responsible parents. We love our children very much and I don't think any parent could imagine or consider anything like this ever happening.

IW: Were you aware of the big public debate that went on in the immediate aftermath and were you hurt by that?

KM and GM: Yeah.

GM: I mean no one hurts you as much as the hurt we had but we've tried to remain very positive in our outlook and even small levels of criticism make that hard when you're trying to do everything in your power to get your daughter back.

IW: I know you've been very supportive of the Portuguese police investigation but is there anything you feel could have been done better, particularly in those crucial first 24 hours when Madeleine was missing and perhaps it was treated as a simple missing child as opposed to an abduction?

GM: I think erm, you know, we are not looking at what has been done and I don't think it helps at this stage to look back at what could and what couldn't have been done. I think it's fair to say we expected a very British-style response that you would expect if you were in a big metropolitan city but you have to put that in context, we were in a tiny resort but, you know, that aside we, the times for these lessons to be learned will be after the investigation is finished and not now.

You know it's an ongoing investigation which has huge resources both from the Portuguese and the British. They're working very very closely with lots of expert help and I know there's hundreds of pieces of information continuing to come forward and I would strongly like to emphasise we'd like anyone who's been here in the two weeks leading up to the abduction to come forward if they have not already done so and upload their photographs because we want Madeleine back and people can still influence that.

IW: Looking back, I mean, did you see anything suspicious in the days leading up to her abduction? Did you notice anything? Have you been racking your brains to try and think whether people might have been watching?

KM: We didn't.

GM: If we did we wouldn't tell you [laughs] because it may be important information but we didn't. You know, it was such a relaxing holiday. In fact as a family unit, up until that night, I know for friends who were here and certainly for us, it was as good a holiday as we have had with the children - up until that point.

IW: You have to keep believing that Madeleine is still going to be found alive and well.

GM: Absolutely? [talks over]

IW: Do you ever, though, allow yourself to drift towards negative thoughts?

KM: I think in the early days we did and I think that's inevitable. I think any parent who has been through this does that certainly in the first few days. We don't now. We're actually a lot stronger, a lot more hopeful now. And we have to be hopeful, it's what keeps us going and what keeps us focused.

IW: And what about Sean and Amelie? What have you said to them about their big sister?

KM: They're really good, I mean they're at an age really where they're still quite young and um [paused] I guess it hasn't had the same impact on them as if they were a little bit older. They do talk about Madeleine. They pick up things and say Madeleine's, you know? And that's fine but they're really good.

GM: I think that's, you know, something that is many people have said to us that this is a parent's worst nightmare and it is, it truly is and it's as bad as you can possibly imagine but, you know, if all three of the children had been taken it could have been even worse than your worst nightmare and we've got to be strong for them. You know, they're here. They do bring you back to Earth. And we cannot grieve one, we did grieve of course we grieved but ultimately we need to be in control so that we can influence and help in anyway possible. Not just Sean and Amelie but the investigation.

IW: And because of them, the day may come when you have to leave here and go back to the UK. I know you've got no plans to do so at the moment but how do you think you're going to feel if that day comes and you have to go to the airport and fly back?

KM: I can't think about that Ian, to be honest. I can't think about going home without Madeleine so?

IW: I notice you've got Madeleine's cuddly toy with you as always. How did that start and what comfort does it bring you?

KM: Where did it come from?

IW: No how did the idea come to have it in your hands all the time?

KM: Well it's something that Madeleine has with her every night, and if she's upset or not well, she has cuddle cat. So it provided me with a little bit of comfort. It's something of Madeleine close to me.

IW: This is International Missing Children's Day. I mean I guess Madeleine has had more publicity than just about every missing child in the world put together. I'm sure you're very grateful for that. Why do you think it has provoked such enormous public support of which I don't think we've ever seen before?

GM: I think there's a conglomeration of circumstances that have come together in this situation. The fact that we were on holiday, very safe resort recognised for that, and of course the world has changed in terms of information technology and the speed of response you know, in terms of the media coming here and us being prepared to some extent, use that to try and influence the campaign. But above all else it's touched everyone. Everyone.

You don't have to be a parent for this to have a major impact on you and I think it's also been very very important and some of the things we did and said we didn't realise what impact they would have but so many thousands of people are doing small things to help us find Madeleine. 'Cause the worst feeling was helplessness, the absolute worst. That we had no bearing on finding her.

But once you start to do that then you start to feel a bit better and I hope that we are going to look back at the end of all this and say that we have done everything in our power, but also that other people are helping in so many other ways and they feel that they are part of it.

IW: Does it worry you that people might start to lose interest as time goes on the media coverage diminishes inevitably?

GM: For me, we know the media coverage is not going to last a long time. It has lasted a lot longer and we have been much, much more successful in driving a message out than we could ever possibly have imagined. Personally I think it's gone beyond that at the minute and there is a feeling with many many people out there that they will not allow this to happen.

And we know that and we pray that it doesn't happen again but when it does, the speed of the next response and the template we have set - and there has been so much goodwill and humanity out there that it really has restored, one evil act actually has resulted in so much good.

IW: Where do you go from here? There's talk of travelling around Europe. Have you got any firm plans as yet?

KM: We haven't got any firm plans. We're likely to travel in a few places in Europe but as yet, no definite plans.

IW: Have you got no plans to go back to the UK for the foreseeable future?

KM: [both shake heads] No.

IW: I think that everyone has just been incredibly impressed with you as a couple and how you've dealt with this. There was a period after a week or so where you looked as if you were almost broken and who could not understand that? And then there seemed to be a sort of a strength come from somewhere. Is that a fair point? Is that what happened and what brought it about?

KM: I think that's definitely true, isn't it [looks at Gerry and sighs]

GM: Certainly, you know, at the end of that first week there was so much emotion that we had spent and we actually had a period where we discussed this openly that we felt devoid, completely devoid of emotion. The analogy that I like to use is a bit like when we were students and you'd got to your overdraft limit and you'd gone beyond it and there was just nothing left in the tank.

Also, I think, physically and mentally were shattered but, you know, as we gradually got more on an even keel and we started to get back into the black and we'd also worked tirelessly behind the scenes to put support mechanisms in place including our legal team. The response with the fund which was really driven by offers rather than us thinking we needed it. And once these were in place then it helped us to focus on what we really needed to focus on.

IW: Well everyone who's watching who has been following Madeleine's case over the past three weeks just wishes you all the best. Thanks very much Gerry. Thanks very much Kate.